53

Every so often, but more frequently than we'd like, we get a question blocked user who is so desperate to ask a new question that they take one of their existing questions and completely replace it with a new question. They quite often then raise a bounty on the new question.

Now if the question has no answers it's not really a problem. Yes, it's abuse of the system but no one has been disadvantaged by this and if the new question is any good it might actually help the OP get out of their ban. (Let's ignore the fact that the only non-negative scoring questions the user has might actually have answers). In these cases perhaps just a "low priority" flag is needed so we can investigate and see if further action is warranted.

The real problem arises when the edit invalidates all the existing answers and is compounded when people answer the new question in the hope of earning the bounty.

So, should we do one, some or all of the following when a question banned user tries to edit and add a bounty to a question that has already been answered?

  1. Just raise a flag for the moderators to look at this.
  2. Block the edit completely.
  3. Prevent a bounty being raised.

The obvious questions are:

  1. What's a moderator going to do with the flag? All we can do is roll back the edit, refund the bounty and warn the user, far better to stop them in the first place. However, if nothing else is done it at least allows us to fix the issue before anyone answers the "new" question.
  2. How do we determine what a "radical" edit is? Percentage of text changed, changes to tags? How do we prevent this firing for legitimate cleanups of an initial poor question?
  3. Again, what criteria do we use here?

NOTE: These checks don't have to just apply to question blocked users, we do get users who aren't banned editing questions and invalidating existing answers as well.

Is there anything better we can do?

15
  • 4
    Are there any stats as to how frequent of an occurrence this is? If it is a couple of times a week occurrence, the best approach might be different than if it is a couple of times an hour. Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 11:14
  • 1
    @psubsee2003 I'm not sure how we'd get stats, but my gut feeling that on SO at least it's a couple of times a week. The problem is we rarely get notified of the issue but when we do it's often too late to clean up without upsetting somebody.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 11:15
  • 1
    That's the main issue here, the fact that a clean up days after the edit/bounty is always messy and never completely fixes things. If we can prevent it happening or clean it up straight away then that's much better all round.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 11:18
  • 22
    Hard to muster an enormous amount of sympathy for the bounty hunters. It is always obvious that the question was completely changed, simply from the existing answer(s) having nothing to do with the question. If they post an answer anyway instead of flagging the question, meh, that's their own doing. They can easily aim their wrath at the OP instead of you. Or themselves. Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:32
  • @ChrisF here's a question to you as a moderator - how are automatic flags for possible vandalism prioritised? are these easy enough to pick from mod flag queue?
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:22
  • 1
    @gnat Flags are split into lists according to type so while vandalism flags aren't prioritised in the same way that spam & rude or abusive flags are, they are easily discoverable in the list of outstanding flags.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:29
  • I guess the question is how do you tell the difference between a radical edit that changes the question completely versus one that changes a bad question into a better one but keeps the question the same.
    – Joe W
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 15:34
  • 3
    Note that I have more issues with the practice of changing even an unanswered question like this, as it allows the bounty placer to bypass the system limitations, namely the requirement that the question is at least 2 days old.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 15:51
  • 5
    Here is an example. Java people can go crazy reading the answers.
    – ulab
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 16:58
  • 3
    There's no bounty there, and the asker has never been q-banned or blocked, @ulab. That's closer to a chameleon question than what's being talked about here.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 17:16
  • 3
    Um, no @Shog9. Look here: concrete evidence that this OP changes question, title, tag, subject, and language at will. "Questions are a scarce resource", isn't that mentioned somehwere? This user therefore recycles.
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 17:54
  • 2
    Yeah... But again, no blocking - that user could've asked more questions, instead they're just messing up their existing ones, @Rad. That account is also scheduled for deletion... I suspect those two things are not unrelated. This is actually a good deal more common than the scenario ChrisF describes. I'll clean it up.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 17:56
  • 1
    @Shog9 No blocking, but still, shouldn’t a solution include those things as well? Do we only want to prevent this question reuse for users that are blocked from asking, or do we actually want to prevent questions from being recycled into something else? I personally don’t want it to happen regardless of who does it, and why they do it. Questions shouldn’t change that way once asked.
    – poke
    Commented Oct 22, 2016 at 8:57
  • Strip away the question-block and bounty, and we're just left with "prevent question vandalism", @poke. Which... is well-nigh impossible without also preventing editing. If you see this happening, roll it back and flag for moderator attention - there's no substitute for just empowering folks to fix stuff like this.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Oct 22, 2016 at 22:18
  • @Shog9 I’m just saying that instead of focusing on triggers that are specific to question-banned people creating bounties, maybe there should be some more general detection that notifies certain people (doesn’t even need to be mods) when questions are likely completely rewritten. – I understand that the question-banned case is the important one here; but still, the fact that those cases are not always noticed is a clear indication that there are likely non-question-banned cases slipping through as well.
    – poke
    Commented Oct 22, 2016 at 23:18

6 Answers 6

47

One thing that I've been thinking for a while that won't prevent the issue but would help close the window between detection of the problem, and decisive action:

When flags are shown to moderators, prioritize flags on questions with bounties over other flags so that flags on questions with bounties get speedy resolution.

(Spam flags would have priority over everything else. As they do now, I believe.)

A bounty is supposed to bring increased exposure to a question. It should also mean increased exposure to moderation.

With this in place, if I ran into a case like you describe I'd:

  1. Revert the edit.
  2. Comment that pulling the rug from under the answerers' feet is not okay, bounty or no bounty.
  3. Flag for moderator attention explaining the situation.
5
  • 7
    The only drawback to this is that there's still a window between the user making the radical edit and someone flagging it, but it does address the issue of getting the problem in view of moderators as quickly as possible.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:08
  • 1
    I agree. I decided I should bring this up even if it is imperfect because there's a general problem with flags on bountied questions. There are also all the run-of-the-mill cases where a tool recommendation question, or an opinion-based question, or a question that should be closed for other reasons manages to fly under the radar until it gets a bounty. I raise a flag and explain but it is not rare that it manages to acquire answers between the time I flag and the time the question is closed by a moderator.
    – Louis
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:14
  • 7
    Don't get me wrong, I think it's an excellent suggestion and one that probably (famous last words) requires the minimum of changes to implement.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:16
  • 3
    For the specific case that triggered the discussion among moderators and Chris posting this question, the flag came rather late, several days into the bounty. I would rather have seen that specific post brought to our attention much, much earlier.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:43
  • 7
    I absolutely agree with prioritizing flags on questions with bounties. One of my recent flags was declined because the question no longer had a bounty when a moderator got around to reviewing the flag, which meant I was received a message that I should have used a close vote, when at the time I couldn't have cast a close vote. Context is important.
    – zzzzBov
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 19:16
18

The system keeps a record of when the user bumped into the question block, as demonstrated e.g. by Stack Exchange employees answers to this stats request.

Because of that, issues you ask about can be automatically detected essentially instantly without any user involvement at all.

As far as I can tell system could simply trigger an automatic flag when the following conditions are all met:

  1. The question has got a bounty
  2. There are answers posted prior to the bounty
  3. The question was edited prior to the bounty - say, within a day
  4. The asker has recently bumped into a question block - say, within a week

I think that of existing flag kinds, one about possible vandalism could do (similar to one raised by the system when user deletes many of their answers). Vandalism fits because we suspect that question edit invalidates existing answers.

Note that vandalism flags seem to also well fit to handle urgent issues, as explained here:

Flags are split into lists according to type so while vandalism flags aren't prioritised in the same way that spam & rude or abusive flags are; they are easily discoverable in the list of outstanding flags.

10
  • 2
    The size of the edit would be a good factor for this to consider. Rewriting a question has a different signature than just adding a clarifying paragraph to go along with a bounty.
    – jscs
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:09
  • 1
    @JoshCaswell yeah, I even was considering to add something like this as a fifth condition but in the end hesitated: it felt like the four I listed narrow things down enough to let the rest to be checked manually by a moderator. By the way your example with "clarifying paragraph" suggests that it may be risky to dismiss: banned user can simply prefer to "append" their new question to existing one instead of overwriting it
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:16
  • Yes, an autoflag would be nice. Hopefully, it can be tweaked so that it catches most cases without the need for manual flagging and also not generate too many false positives. Are autoflags already given priority over other flags during flag handling?
    – Louis
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:19
  • 1
    @Louis I intentionally tried to pick these four conditions to guarantee catching all the cases (at the expense of allowing some possible false alarms). Imagine removing any of them and notice how remainder doesn't make an abuse anymore (or more precisely doesn't make an abuse worth urgent attention of the diamond moderator)
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:26
  • @Louis ...wrt prioritising vandalism flags, these look good enough - I edited the answer with an explanation given by a moderator
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:34
  • 1
    @gnat Thanks for the edit. I've already upvoted so I cannot upvote again. :) Looks like it takes care of everything.
    – Louis
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:35
  • I can imagine that a question block first ignites irritation and SO-hate and the desperation to ask a question that triggers this act of vandalism will set in much later than a week. I think criteria 4 is perfectly valid - but just to having a question block, no need for a specific time frame.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:46
  • @Gimby maybe. Or maybe not. Anyway SE team can find out with stats which cut off period (or none at all) would work best. I intentionally made it open ended - "say, within a week" - meaning a week here is just an example
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:53
  • I would change number 4 to just, "User has a question block." Or maybe even just remove it entirely. Does it really matter whether the user has a question block if they drastically edited a post and then placed a bounty? Or if they placed a bounty and then drastically edited the post?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 16:19
  • @jpmc26 as I wrote in prior comment, I intentionally left it open ended because I think this detail is better to be decided by SE team - they have access to stats needed to find out what will work best. I am not going to guess because I don't have access to stats
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 16:40
14

We already raise flags based on some related criteria; in fact, I just turned down the sensitivity on a bunch of them because they were producing too many false-positives. At Stack Overflow's scale, the chances of feeding a ton of noise into the mod queue for edits like this vastly outweighs any chance that you'll manage to catch these in time. Folks make a ton of edits to their own posts, often extensive edits... The vast majority of them are helpful or at least benign. I went through a bunch of examples last week while reviewing the auto-flags, and... Guess what, it's reasonably common for q-banned users to go back through their own questions and do extensive cleanups. Not anywhere near common enough, mind you, but... You saw the backlog of "vandalism: edits" flags; that's a drop in the bucket compared to what this would be.

Disabling edits for q-banned users is a non-starter; that essentially puts them in a position where they can't post new questions and can't fix their old ones.

The edit isn't the problem here. Anyone can vandalize a post; doesn't take q-banned users to do it, nor is vandalism limited to them - we've been lamenting "chameleon questions" for years, and those are even more insidious. If an edit causes a problem, roll back and everyone moves on with their lives.

As usual, bounties make everything suck more. If you want a solution here, disable bounties for recently-edited questions: the big "cheat" here is offering a bounty without the usual two-day waiting period - so impose a two-day waiting period after every edit.

Whether this is common enough to warrant such a change... Well, here are the last 100 bounties started less than 48-hours following an edit by the same user.

7
  • 9
    So if Alice comes back to her question after two days without an answer and decides to spruce it up a bit before shining a spotlight on it, then the joke is on her because now she has to wait an additional two days before she can get the extra attention. Meanwhile, Bob, who has been q-banned but is determined to work around the constraints imposed by SO puts the bounty on first and then makes his radical edit.
    – Louis
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 17:08
  • 4
    Can we stop discussing hypothetical situations here, @Louis? This entire thread is a depressing witch-hunt based on zero data as to how often this actually occurs; the discussion itself was prompted by an incident where arguably the asker hurt himself more than he hurt anyone else. Look at the data linked to above - yeah, we would almost certainly be throwing a baby out with the bathwater if we implemented this, because it almost never happens.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 17:11
  • 2
    But it's very difficult to spot to begin with, right? I only saw this a couple of times where the question was smack in the middle of my expertise and somehow the existing answers did not feel right..
    – Jongware
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 17:58
  • 2
    OK. It's the combination of question ban and bounty that's the real issue. Enforcing a delay in starting bounties allows things to be cleaned up cleanly, hopefully by regular users, through rollbacks and close votes. This might be the simplest solution.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 18:22
  • 6
    Though I admit that I don't have a good solution for the OP, I don't like the idea of imposing an additional delay before a bounty can be started based on edits. The two-day waiting period is long enough. There is a legitimate use case of revisiting a question and making a few clarifying edits before you add the bounty. Many people would be blocked from adding a bounty when they want for no good reason.
    – user000001
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 20:18
  • 4
    Why not simply disable the ability to offer bounties when question-blocked? Commented Oct 20, 2016 at 11:01
  • 1
    Could also do that, @MatthieuM. Harder to know if that would help though, and certainly more expensive; question-blocking isn't always a fixed state, so you don't necessarily know if someone is blocked until you test them... Which can then affect how long they're blocked for. And of course, that does nothing for folks who are just using this technique to work around the waiting period on bounties and aren't blocked in the first place - arguably the biggest violation here.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Oct 20, 2016 at 23:23
8

In the end, there is not much the community as a whole can do to deal with this as quickly as it seems to be necessary, especially when you bring a bounty into the equation.

The problem is there doesn't seem to be a clean automatic option that doesn't involved a person getting involved at some point in time.

  • Relying on manual flagging requires someone to see it and then decide to flag it
  • Blocking the edit becomes a problem when a question banned user is trying to improve their questions like they are instructed.
  • Preventing bounties on edited questions from q-banned users is probably the safest option, but doesn't do much to actually address the edit, it just addressed the bounty and reduces the likelihood of a quick answer to the new question

So the only approach is to get this into the moderators' hands as quickly as possible to limit the damage that is done. The moderators are better equipped to deal with the problems since they are the only users who can really address the bounty issue.

If this is an occurrence that is happening infrequently (maybe a few times a week or even once or twice a day), the simplest and best approach is to raise an automatic moderator flag when the content of a question changes by a predetermine percentage of characters and the edit was done by the OP.

The advantage to this is it is presumably simple to implement and while it may generate false flags for the moderators, it doesn't actively prevent a user from trying to improve their post by blocking an edit that may trip an automatic block.

You can further limit this based on whether the question has answers, and the OP's rep and q-ban status so users who aren't banned or rate limited and have sufficient reputation are not generating flags with a wholesale edit, and you are focusing on the main problem of questions with answers.

3
  • My first thought was the flag, but then - given the size of SO's flag queue - thought I'd expand it to see if there was anything we could do or was worth doing.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 11:26
  • @ChrisF it seemed like the obvious solution, so I at least wanted to make sure it had a mention. Perhaps and automatic flag combined with Louis's suggestion to prioritize flags on bountied questions? Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 11:28
  • 1
    I really like the idea of limiting bounties on users with a question block. Maybe we could massage that idea some more.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 16:21
-8

Obvious proposal (although it would be work to implement): a "Radical Question Edit" queue, that contains all edits to questions that don't leave even a single paragraph or code block from the question mostly intact. Reviewers would have the option to approve as a legit edit or to revert and leave an autocomment explaining why this is a bad thing to do. Hopefully this occurrence is sufficiently rare that this queue would be constantly empty. No moderator intervention even needed!

6
  • 12
    Another queue. The moderator's nightmare. Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:37
  • 3
    Given how many bad reviews take place every day, a review queue is not the solution. Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 12:53
  • You have heard of robo reviewers, yes? Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 13:19
  • Problems upon problems. Review queues should be a possible solution to this problem, but in practice really aren't. But given how SO works, even if the review queues worked good enough I'd still try to find an automatic means of handling this because the tools are there. Gnat's proposal looks to have potential.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 14:41
  • 5
    The killer here is that if you're q-banned, you probably should be making radical edits to your questions... Just not edits that change them into completely different questions.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 15:28
-10

From Mark Amery's answer:

a "Radical Question Edit" queue, that contains all edits to questions that don't leave even a single paragraph or code block from the question mostly intact.

Such a review queue would actually work with some adjustments. These adjustments are probably along the lines of:

  • Making the queue moderator-only (mods don't robo-review except when it comes to declining inappropriate flags, do they?)
  • Sending edits to the queue only when the radically edited question has an answer
1
  • 9
    There is no point in new moderator-only queues; that's what auto-flags are for.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 19, 2016 at 16:28

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .