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I originally posted this in the documentation beta, but it got no response and almost no views there. I'm not sure if it's because few people are monitoring the documentation beta or because the topic of the post is not a major concern. Anyway, I deleted the original post and I'm reposting a slightly modified version here. I hope that isn't a no-no.


I'm excited about Documentation and what it has to offer, especially the prominence of the examples. This has the potential to be very, very helpful to myself and other developers struggling to implement under-documented or outdated topics from the official documentation.

I now see the benefit of this beta, though. The following are some of my thoughts about how the structure of the Documentation could be improved (in my opinion).

Related questions

I realize variants of this question have come up before:

I'm writing a new question to bring renewed focus on this and to propose a more hierarchical structure.

The Problem with the Current Documentation Topics Structure

As new documentation topics are starting to trickle in, they tend to be very broad. The examples, however, are more detailed. Take, for instance, Android Layouts (and this is just one of many broad topics that currently exist):

enter image description here

Right now this organization looks quite nice because there is only one example per subtopic. However, let's just say I think I (or if not me, then 10 other people in the future) might be able to make a better LinearLayout example than the current one. Soon this topic will become a mass of LinearLayout, RelativeLayout, and WhateverLayout examples that are ordered not by layout type, but by the number of votes. An unfortunate mess.

Why We Don't Currently Have a Hierarchical Structure

In Warlords of Documentation: Your Quest(ions Answered), the authors stated

What about hierarchies, nesting, grouping, namespaces, modules, etc.?

This question was asked a couple of times, but there was also a point raised a few times which is basically its answer: the default way people search for and through documentation is they google it.

...

We don’t really think, based on observation and personal experiences, that there’s a ton of value to be had in strict hierarchies. They also add big points of contention and debate, plus some serious technical issues (like, what happens to Topics when the hierarchy is modified, who can modify it, how do you modify it?). The tradeoffs don’t make much sense, in other words.

What is super important is linking. Lots of information is conveyed, and links are very flexible. We intend to strongly encourage links, and to make intelligent “Related Topic” inferencing based on it.

So the current plan is googling and linking. If linking can be well enforced, then it will be at least a slight improvement over over the current Stack Overflow Q&A format. However, googling only works if Google shows me the topic I am looking for. That is definitely not a guarantee. Also, neither of these things deal with the problem of overly broad topics or with organizing the random variety of topics that will accumulate over time.

Benefits of the Official Documentation

The benefits of the official documentation are

  • It is exhaustively thorough.
  • It is logically organized into a hierarchy of topics.

That means that even when Google doesn't give me anything, I can look it up manually in the documentation tree. I'll do whatever is fastest, of course, which means google first, go to the hierarchy second.

To me it seems that our Documentation as it currently exists is not significantly different than the Q&A. If Google doesn't show me and I didn't happen to run across a link from a similar topic, I'm left with nothing (even if the topic/answer actually does exist). But that's what its always been like with SO Q&A.

By using a hierarchical structure in our Documentation, we can have the best of both worlds: a browsable structure on every topic users need + practical up-to-date examples.

Renewed Proposal to Implement a Hierarchical Structure

Benefits

Enforcing new topics to fit into a hierarchical structure would give the following benefits:

  • Provide an alternate search route when Google fails.
  • Make sure that topics are not too broad and that examples are collected in the appropriate place.
  • Give learners a logical path to follow from topic to topic.
  • Prevent topic duplication and reduce the need for merging.
  • If a topic does not exist (i.e. there is no content for a particular item), then it is a centralized place to make a topic request. Random, unorganized requests are reduced.

Challenges (and potential solutions)

  • What hierarchy should be used?

    • API related documentation should follow the structure of the official documentation tree and change as the official tree changes.
    • Tutorial-like material (“Getting Started,” “Making HTTP Queries,” etc.) could follow a general outline used across Documentations but be customized according to the needs of a particular Documentation.
  • How do you modify the hierarchy?

    • Someone (because of stated reason x (ie, official doc structure has changed) makes a request to
      • create a new sibling topic/level or sub-topic. This doesn't create content, just an empty (greyed-out?) spot in the tree structure.
      • move a sibling topic/level or sub-topic to a new location
      • delete/deprecate a topic
      • rename a topic/level
    • Other people must approve the change. The bigger the change, the more high rep users are needed to approve it.
  • Who can modify the hierarchy?

    • Anyone can add content to a requested topic.
    • Anyone of a certain rep can request a change to the hierarchy structure.
    • A relatively high number of high rep users are needed to approve the changes.
  • What happens to Topics when the hierarchy is modified?

    • The individual topics themselves can be stored as they are now or as Stack Overflow question pages are stored. However, they should be internally linked to the hierarchy and that hierarchy should be visible for browsing from the topic page.
    • Parent moved: move the subtopics also.
    • Parent deleted: delete, move, or merge subtopics.
    • Parent renamed: do nothing to subtopics unless necessary.
  • Isn't this just encouraging people to recreate existing official docs or make trivial additions?

    • You can't add content without a topic request
    • People only get rep for examples
    • Trivial examples can be downvoted

Summary

Creating a hierarchical structure will be more work in some regards

  • Creating an initial hierarchical outline
  • modifying the hierarchy

But it will save an untold amount of time in other areas

  • Checking for, marking, and merging duplicate topics
  • Finding the topics needed when Google fails

We have the opportunity to start now before the Documentation topics become unwieldy. It will be more work up front but in the long run I think we'll be glad we did.

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  • 12
    Hierarchy is a way for people to discover what they really want, based on where they land from Googling.
    – o11c
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 2:15
  • 11
    Yes, please! As it stands right now, it almost seems as if Documentation was intended for languages/tools/libraries/frameworks that only have the equivalent of global functions. Everyone is structuring everything differently and it's a complete mayhem. I can't imagine trying to learn a new technology via Documentation. The Versions for example are almost useless as you need to be very granular for it to make any sense.
    – ndnenkov
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 21:56
  • 2
    The heirarchy needs to be flexible - maybe only changeable by users with a high enough reputation in the given subject area. Topics should be able to be 'tagged' into the hierarchy, in multiple places if needs be. Commented Jul 23, 2016 at 21:17
  • Related my Sub-Topic feature request from the beta site that also didn't get much attention: docs-beta.stackexchange.com/questions/1222/…
    – Tot Zam
    Commented Jul 27, 2016 at 3:36
  • Maybe we could even vote on the hierachy like similar topics etc. ... Commented Jul 28, 2016 at 11:59
  • "should follow the structure of the official documentation tree and change as the official tree changes." but is the layout of the official doc tree a trademark or cw of the producing company? In other words, would lifting the structure, even in spirit, be a form of plagiarism or tm/cw infringement?
    – mpag
    Commented Aug 6, 2016 at 7:44
  • @mpag, For object oriented languages, most of the hierarchy derives from what is a subclass of what. I can't see how using this type of hierarchy would be considered copyright infringement.
    – Suragch
    Commented Aug 6, 2016 at 19:34

3 Answers 3

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I don't believe hierarchy is the right solution here. What Docs.SO needs is the following:

  1. Categorization. We can't call them tags because that name is taken. But topics need to be able to exist in categories, in a similar way we tag questions on SO. They should be named, and they should be able to have text written for them.

  2. Relationships between categories. That is, categories can themselves be categorized. This should not be restricted to a mere tree; it should be a directed, acyclic graph. Each category should have its own list of sub-categories, and each category should have its own list of parent categories.

Also, I think it is important, for the sake of organization and structure, to divorce examples from topics. Consider this:

You have a topic about string manipulation. One of the examples would be doing a replacement operation via a regex. OK, fine.

But you probably also have a topic about regexes in general for that language. By all rights, the string-manipulation-with-regex example ought to also be under the regex topic. After all, that's a thing you can do with regexes, so it belongs there just as much as it belongs in string manipulation.

Who wins? As it currently stands: nobody. At best, the information will be duplicated. But odds are good that one of the duplicates will be of much higher quality than the other.

This happens quite frequently, and there's really nothing that the current system can do about it.

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    My main counterargument here is that categorical documentation is a major departure from what currently exists and the structure of many of the tools in the programming ecosystem naturally fit with the hierarchical view of things. The problem of doing something completely new is that even if it is a better way to organize things, you still have retrain everyone how to use it when everything else already works roughly the same. Better to be close and change things slowly Packages, libraries and most of the tooling of modern programming is organized hierarchically already, it just makes sense.
    – Nick Larsen Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 0:25
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    @NickLarsen: "the structure of many of the tools in the programming ecosystem naturally fit with the hierarchical view of things." If you want to use a general tool to build a hierarchy, you can. But you should not be limited to that. And there is no need to "retrain" people; categorization is effectivley how tagging works on SO. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 2:19
  • @NicolBolas I'm open to discussing it more, but can you give a concrete example that in it's current state is documented hierarchically so we can talk pros and cons about the same thing?
    – Nick Larsen Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 2:26
  • @NickLarsen: I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking for an example from Docs.SO that is hierarchial? Because that doesn't exist, since we don't allow that kind of organization scheme there. Are you asking for an example from some external code that's organized in a strict hierarchy? If so, just look at anything on MSDN. Are you asking for an example that's organized according to categories? Well, MediaWiki specializes in that, and I happen to have used it to document a major system. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 2:46
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    @NickLarsen: My main point, and I don't think I said it correctly, is this. Anything you can build with a hierarchy can be built with categories (so long as categories can be within categories, which is what SO tags are missing). The principle difference is that with categories, a documented feature doesn't live within a single category. Instead of a tree, you have a DAG. For example "Vertex Shader" is both a shading language shader stage and a vertex processing rendering pipeline stage. So it exists in both categories, which a strict hierarchy cannot do. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 2:55
  • @NicolBolas I get what you're saying now. Nothing about Docs.SO prevents this type of documentation, it's just something that's going to take time to develop. Within a tag, topics can be anything, not just tags, so this structure is completely possible within say "opengl". Documentation is focused on a particular thing, a technology usually (and hopefully), so I get why tags at the top level makes sense. Are you proposing tags at the top level is bad?
    – Nick Larsen Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 3:01
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    @NickLarsen: What I'm proposing is that having no way to have named collections of topics is bad. That having no way to say that an example belongs to multiple topics is bad. Without organization, nobody can actually find something. And Tag->Topic->Example is too short and too inflexible for good organization. MediaWiki is able to categorize a massive encyclopedia precisely because it doesn't impose a fixed organization. It empowers users to find the best organization for the particular material. And if that means an article or section belongs to two categories, so be it. Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 3:15
  • @NicolBolas just to be explicit, are you okay with tag at the top level (even if it were a DAG)? I argue that a topic can be a named collection of other topics, in the most simple way by just linking them all in the remarks section. Having examples that can belong to multiple topics is interesting, but I'm not convinced it's necessary yet. I can appreciate having to understand multiple concepts (~topics) to have an (possibly simple) example to work for some technology, but I have not really seen it in practice outside of algorithm components like alpha-beta pruning. More examples would help.
    – Nick Larsen Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 3:27
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    @NicolBolas good edit, thanks for that. I'll make sure the team takes a look at this.
    – Nick Larsen Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2016 at 12:57
  • The only danger with examples that can belong to multiple topics is that they might evolve in ways that is specific to one topic and completely irrelevant to the others. We need good mechanisms to prevent this from happening. Re-use is coupling and sometimes what you see as duplication isin't and choosing between re-using or not takes a lot of skills, especially when blinded by the DRY principle. I'm all for a classification mecanism that supports nested classifications, but we need to be aware of the pitfalls of such approach as well and be pro-active.
    – plalx
    Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 13:13
  • @NicolBolas An instance of an example that could live in more than one topic is the "Java -> Object class methods -> equals()" example. Sure, equals is an Object method, but this example should also be organized under an "Equality" topic. The same goes for getClass() which should probably be part of a "Reflection" topic as well.
    – plalx
    Commented Jul 26, 2016 at 13:21
  • @plalx if examples evolve and effect topic diversion, then I see a few options: a) examples should be "forkable". b) example code should just be clearly self-documented to illustrate which parts are relevant. or c) example writers should be able to create "collapsible" examples, where portions of the code are "hidden" behind a standard expansion arrow, with regions hidden based on the tag that landed the viewer there.
    – mpag
    Commented Aug 6, 2016 at 7:56
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    IMO, the easiest way of achieving what Nicol Bolas is talking about is to divorce content from the organizational hierarchy. Make a acyclic graph, where the data is always a terminal. It allows people to easily google subjects, because the hierarchy isn't indexed, only the content. And it allows content to be linked in several hierarchies without duplication.
    – ktbarrett
    Commented Aug 10, 2016 at 13:15
  • @ktb Sure, but that's in the implementation. It does make a lot of sense to have data be pointed to by multiple addresses, but you would do well to have list of reverse pointers too, in order to potentially offer "Fork Example" for when the example needs to exist elsewhere with different details.
    – BenPen
    Commented Sep 23, 2016 at 18:37
  • There's no reason these need to be mutually exclusive. Each category could have its own hierarchy, and topics could retain a loose hierarchy (e.g. it can have a parent topic and one or more child topics, possibly indexed in a "Links" section above the Remarks). There are cases where a hierarchy works best (one I encountered is C++ topic Classes/Structures, which should be the parent of topic Non-Static Member Functions, which should be the parent of topic The This Pointer). Commented Oct 22, 2016 at 16:32
12

I believe that the current hierarchy is not sufficient. Let me illustrate the problems I see with it with everyone's favorite language1, JavaScript.

Here is its documentation. For a tag as broad as a whole language, the question of Scope seems to be a reasonably scoped Topic.

Let's proceed to the top-voted Example, The value of this. I think one can argue that it's an important constituent part of Scope in JavaScript, so it belongs within the Topic.

Now, this Example contains within itself 6 separate sections, each with its own example code, discussing various facets of this.

  • They all belong to the same sub-topic of this, so it's logical to group them.
  • They probably make most sense to the reader when read in a particular order, for example they rely on previously-introduced concepts.

I'm not sure that was meant by a logical "unit" of Example. And yet, it is probably well-written and useful, judging from the vote count.

If those sections were individual Examples, that would all be disrupted:

  • They would intermingle with other Scope examples, and lose usefulness as an overview.
  • They would require intense cross-referencing, or text duplication, just for the concepts used.

While this remains a single Example, one can't link directly to a section. That's also not very good.


Perhaps the problem lies in "Scope" as a Topic?

Let me quote the tour as to constraints on Topics and Examples:

Keep example counts manageable

The typical topic has between one and six examples, and the typical example has a paragraph of explanation and some code. As topics grow, consider splitting them and moving examples to new topics.

Hmm, a well-scoped sub-topic with 6 sections. Hey, that sounds like a typical Topic then. Let's split this off as suggested (though the order question would still be open). And yet..

Don't be too narrow

"Sorting" is probably a good topic for some tags. Having separate topics for "Sorting ascending" and "Sorting descending" is probably not ideal, since the key concepts for both will be the same.

Is this "too narrow" for a topic2? Remember, this is directly below in hierarchy under "JavaScript Language".

But suppose we do split it off as a separate topic. Logically, it's still related to "Scope". How to express this link?

Topics have a chronological sorting and cannot be voted on to hoist prominent ones, or grouped together after splitting. Splitting off a sub-topic probably requires a remark about it on the parent topic - but the Remarks section isn't very visible under a mountain of Examples.


As it is now, I see Documentation as a loosely categorized Q&A collection / cookbook. I'm not sure this is its original intent.

Searching function is here, but one needs to know exactly what to search for. There is a class of people needing this documentation are likely only learning concepts. For this stage, actually being able to go up and down the semantic tree would be immensely helpful.

To keep Topics and Examples under conciseness/scope constraints while being discoverable, the current system lends to "disambiguation"/"discovery" meta-topics and examples. Again, I think this deviates from the intent.


As to how to fix it? It's not obvious.

The lightest touch-up, perhaps, is to allow Topics to nest, and let the users prioritize topics with sorting by voting.

This leaves open the question how to represent sub-topics within the topic page. Keep editing cross-references in Remarks? That's not maintainable. Probably needs an automatically generated section of sub-topics.


1 Might not actually be everyone's favorite language.

2 To be fair, here my specific example breaks down a bit, since this is actually a topic worth a 174-page separate book. But that means, if it's not too narrow, it's too broad - you can't limit it to the "typical" 6 Examples. How do you split further without losing cohesion between parts? Or do you just resign to the fact that's it's going to be a chaotically sorted long list of bite-sized Examples?

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  • Instead of creating a topic about "scope" why don't directly create a topic about "this"... ugg
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:22
  • 3
    @Braiam Maybe you missed this part: But suppose we do split it off as a separate topic. Logically, it's still related to "Scope". How to express this link? Topics have a chronological sorting and cannot be voted on to hoist prominent ones, or grouped together after splitting. Splitting off a sub-topic probably requires a remark about it on the parent topic - but the Remarks section isn't very visible under a mountain of Examples.
    – user539810
    Commented Jul 24, 2016 at 1:57
  • Agreed. I ran into this same problem when making an in-depth explanation of non-static member functions in C++ classes, and some of the more useful nuances therein. Originally a ~30k character example, so I had to split it off into a new topic, then edit the original example to match. Commented Sep 23, 2016 at 17:06
  • At the moment, it loosely mimics a hierarchial design: The original example links to the new topic, and the new topic links back to the original in the remarks. It would be much simpler if there was a system in place to create this hierarchy, even if it was only as simple as a "Related Topics" section with sub-categories for parent and child topics. Commented Sep 23, 2016 at 17:07
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With Documentation, we've taken something like the UC Irvine sidewalk design philosophy:

When they first built the University of California at Irvine campus, they just put the buildings in. They did not put any sidewalks, they just planted grass. The next year, they came back and built the sidewalks where the trails were in the grass. . . . Those paths can go diagonally. We want shortcuts. Sometimes we want to be able to do the orthogonal thing, so [we generally allow] the orthogonal approach also. But it also allows a certain number of shortcuts, and being able to insert those shortcuts is part of that evolutionary thing.

The enforced hierarchy is:

  • Tags
    • Topics
      • Examples (at least one is required)
      • Syntax (optional)
      • Parameters (optional)
      • Remarks (optional)
      • Versions (optional for the introductory topic)

That's already a fair degree of hierarchy. We've already had a proposal to add more hierarchy on the tag level and another to let people adjust the order of Topic components. When thinking theoretically, I see where these proposals are coming from. But practically, they are addressing problems we haven't really observed yet.

Stack Overflow's beta kept to the KISS and YAGNI principles. There were a lot of things people said were necessary for functional Q&A, such as threaded comments, that never got implemented. Since launch, there have been many more features added that we never would have dreamed of during the beta. By it's nature, Documentation is more complex than Q&A, so more complexity is to be expected. However, it's still too soon to know exactly where.

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  • Actually, documentation is simple, more simple than pure Q&A. You got a thing, that does stuff, and thats everything that needs to be documented.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 20, 2016 at 16:36
  • @Braiam: That's the GitHub wiki approach to documentation. The trouble with requiring people to build their own structure is that it adds a tedium to an already tedious task. We know that the most useful bit of documentation is examples, so we require those. It also makes some sense to group examples on a page somehow. And it's sorta insane to lump Java documentation with Javascript documentation, so you gotta divide by tags. I think we owe people a minimal hierarchy. What Docs offers might not be ideal, but it's a good place to start.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jul 20, 2016 at 16:46
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    The path to sidewalk philosophy is intriguing. I'll be interested to see where it leads. In the past few days I've tried adding some new topics and examples to existing topics. The examples seem to be acting like sub-topics. I also don't know how duplicate handling will work. I purposefully added some duplicate examples that were broken down with a different organization that I felt was easier to use.
    – Suragch
    Commented Jul 20, 2016 at 17:52
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    The fundamental problem I see is treating all examples as if they are equal, so that the best ones (most upvoted) rise to the top. This works well for Q&A because all answers are expected to be an answer to the question. The best (most useful, most accurate, most complete) answers filter to the top; the others fall to the bottom. But that model doesn't seem to transfer to examples in Documentation, at least not the way I currently see it being used. Look for example at C++ Strings. There are a bunch of different examples that...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 11:51
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    demonstrate different things you might need to do with a string. Why would case-conversion be shown at the top, whereas trimming be shown at the bottom? Worse, since votes affect this, and votes can change at any time, the order is also subject to change. I find that very confusing. It would make far more sense if there was some way to order the examples from, say, beginner to intermediate to advanced. Or just some type of logical ordering, assuming that they weren't intended to all just be different people's attempts at examples of how to do the same things.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 11:52
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    currently I only see duplications instead of crosslinks (sidewalks) Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:14
  • 1
    @CodyGray: We discussed different ways of sorting examples, including manual sorts. But it was just too fiddly and we didn't know exactly how people would use the system. So we copied the pin-and-scoring system from Q&A. I would not bet against that model being augmented or even scrapped in the future. It'll be easier to design after we have more content to prototype with and more edge cases.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:23
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    Topic-Groups would be nice. I feel like the list of topics is quite unordered and does not give a good overview, so something below the tag level and above the topics level. Alternatively multiple tags per topic as in the main site. Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 19:46
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    What SO Documentation has now is clearly not enough. For instance, for the Java tag, there is a topic called "Concurrent Programming (Threads)". Anyone who searches for examples on concurrent programming in Java is likely to end up in that topic, but it is missing information on best practices and important classes because they are, as it turns out, in a different topic. This wouldn't be a problem if "Concurrent Programming" were a category, not a simple topic. This lack of hierarchy and discoverability is going to dramatically increase the spread of bad practices. Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 23:17
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    @nickguletskii: Why not edit in some links so people won't miss that connection?
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 23:21
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    @JonEricson There are several reasons. The first one is that the only logical place for a link to other topics is the remarks section, and its visibility is rather limited for such important references. The second one is that its more likely that people will react to something written in larger letters and in a differently styled box than they are to the frequently occurring hyperlinks. Since it seems that SO doc is targeted towards people who mostly copy examples without reading, it is very important to properly advertise these connections. Commented Jul 21, 2016 at 23:43
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    I don't know why manual sort would be "fiddly". I mean, does it take work to get a good sort order? Yes. But that's neither surprising nor unique. It will take a lot of work to get good documentation on Stack Overflow. For example, I just approved this topic for the x86 documentation. It contains a bunch of different examples that deal with different topics under that fundamental heading. It looks like great work to me, properly using all the features. But the sort order is inane and confusing.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 9:31
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    Hmm, I guess that gets into the one-size-doesn't-fit-all model. Not all programming languages are Java and C#. Or maybe it is my own personal bias creeping in. I find documentation that consists of only code dumps with no explanation to be essentially worthless. The x86 instruction set architecture seems like the perfect thing to be documenting on SO because it is not very well-documented elsewhere (unlike most other languages and APIs). But you aren't going to understand what it means if you're just given a bunch of code. Assembly requires some conceptual understanding to make sense of it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 16:15
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    But I could come up with other examples if you don't like that one. Just about any of the topics on the C++ page contain examples that, to me, would make more sense sorted logically, rather than by arbitrary vote counts. Why is it that case-conversion is ranked higher for string operations than the more fundamental act of creation or conversion into C-style strings? Even topics that look fine now simply do because the easy stuff got created first.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 16:17
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    @CodyGray: That std::string topic is loooooong. I'd want to split it up into topics. (Again, that pushes off the problem to the topic sort.) Voting hasn't really been tested yet because all the votes are from other Docs users right now. But the hope is that useful examples will rise to the top. Except for very early learners (who are likely to have other resources) the examples of simple things are not likely to be very useful. We really don't expect people to sit down with Documentation and learn by careful reading. Instead, we want to surface the examples that show concepts in action.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jul 22, 2016 at 17:20

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