56

Many, many moons ago I petitioned to the Stack Exchange overlords to introduce stricter HTML <kbd> element usage rules as people were misusing them to decorate hyperlinks (here).

The general consensus was that nothing could really be done and that the solution was simply:

Editing the post yourself to change the formatting to be correct is a perfectly fine solution, and I encourage any user to do so. If a user doesn't understand why you made the change, explain it to them or link them to a relevant question here on Meta. If they're insistent and keep rolling back the changes, then flagging for a moderator might be helpful, although we may already have a "rollback war" flag on the post. Sometimes a moderator indicating that the change is correct is all it takes, or locking the post may be the final option.

This is all well and good for questions and answers where we can leave comments, but unfortunately this has expended into Documentation. Not only are users marking up their hyperlinks with <kbd> tags (like this!), but Documentation reviewers are actually accepting them!

Here's an example draft which introduced <kbd> tags around every single link in the example which was subsequently accepted: https://stackoverflow.com/documentation/proposed/changes/63812. The content now looks like this:

enter image description here

What's worse is that this particular example had been modified twice since and neither of those users did anything about this pointless formatting abuse.

Furthermore, this user didn't modify just one example, they modified a whole load of them, and there's no way for me to directly contact them without spamming one of their existing questions or answers to let them know about it - not that doing so would get them to revert their own changes.

To put the icing on the cake, wrapping hyperlinks in <kbd> tags is enough for a user to qualify for reputation. Every upvote on the example I linked will give the user +5 reputation, as it already has done:

enter image description here

...and to make it worse, me reverting all these silly <kbd> tags now awards me with +5 reputation for every upvote. I'm no more deserving of this than these silly people are!


  • Editors: Please stop misusing <kbd> tags.
  • Reviewers: Please stop approving misused <kbd> tags.
  • Moderators: Please do something because this makes me sad.
12
  • 1
    just edit it out, what's the big deal? Make a userscript that replaces all those tags with some other markdown symbol Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 11:43
  • 30
    @user1306322 one big deal is that the user doing this will get reputation when the content is upvoted and the user reverting the change will also end up getting reputation every time the content is upvoted. This content should never get approved in the first place. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 11:46
  • 3
    I wouldn't care about reputation, as it's not the main point of the site, but about the content. If you see serial abusers, flag them and let mods decide whether they'll get a warning about their editing habits or revoking their edit privileges if it's too disruptive. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 11:50
  • 2
    @user1306322 okay, how do I flag a user in this case? You're right, reputation isn't the main point of the site, but a lot of people abuse the system for reputation. Reputation is an unfortunate incentive of Documentation. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 11:53
  • 5
    It's an uphill battle. The only real response you're ever is going to get is "edit it or flag the user". Unfortunately, HTML tag abuse is not something that's limited to SO, it happens everywhere on the Internet. This is mostly because the HTML spec is designed to reasonably handle errors, and most people don't give a sh!t about user agents where it does matter. For example, somebody with a screen reader is going to find answers SHOUTING at them constantly because people like to supersize their demo links. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:10
  • 1
    Point #2: There's a limited amount of man power. Do we really need reviewers and moderators to constantly edit/warn users about misusing HTML tags (something that obviously doesn't affect most people, or they'd complain)? The rule should be in place to prevent them from doing it in the first place. Like a pop-up notification and maybe even a link to an accessibility guide. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:14
  • I deleted my answer because I've come to agree we need stricter standards in Documentation than we need in Q&A, and it won't do to have two different styles of links with no discernible system behind it. I still encourage you to relax on the main site, where an occasional <kbd>'ed link to a JSFiddle is not a real problem. (Mass edits adding the tags are, of course.) backticks generate <code> tags, too, and they are not used 100% correctly throughout the site. Used occasionally, neither practice impedes the readability of the content.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:04
  • 1
    Obligatory for any post about the (ab)use of <kbd> - This is why we can't have nice things.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:07
  • 1
    Oh god, now it's spreading! stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/13167565 Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 18:55
  • I have seen people who are Microsoft MVPS and doing edits which just include wrapping links with kbd tag Commented Jul 30, 2016 at 17:07
  • Possible solution: change the CSS stylesheet to make links within <kbd> tags look ugly.
    – RamenChef
    Commented Sep 12, 2016 at 19:20
  • Examples of a different kind. Commented Sep 3, 2022 at 11:34

2 Answers 2

4

That people get away with making minuscule edits, and others gain unwanted rep from editing them out again, is a sign of a broken system.

It's got nothing to do with the occasional use of the kbd tag, though. You're just piggybacking on the general indignation about Documentation here.

The occasional use of kbd is incorrect, but it doesn't seem like such a huge deal that requires repeated meta posts, flagging people, reverting edits, and such.

So it's not semantically correct. Boo hoo. So what? Show me an actual, real-world problem caused by this. It's not like it's impeding the readability of a contribution, like other stylistic no-nos (like showing code in an image). You could argue it improves readability (which would be a case for styling links differently, though, of course, and not an excuse for using <kbd>).

Take people overusing backticks for things they're not meant to use, which seems much more widespread.

If they do it all the time, in every sentence, then yes, we tell them to stop. If it makes the text super annoying to read, we edit it out. If it's silly and wrong but essentially harmless, not editing it is totally an option.

If they edit it into other people's posts to gain rep, flag them with prejudice and hope a moderator will hammer them.

Otherwise, I don't see the problem.

Is this:

Live Demo on JSBin

really worth getting worked up about and editing out?

I don't think so.

9
  • RE your edit: in practice, it makes zero different in the real world (you can blame the HTML spec for that.) However, in the real world as well using semantic tags to style (<strong> for bold, etc.) is heavily frowned upon. I don't blame certain people for getting worked up over it. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:51
  • @uh oh yeah, absolutely. It's just not worth getting worked up over that much if it's not part of a pattern of abusive editing. The incorrect use of backticks is as grievous - it generates <code> tags so strictly speaking, there should never be anything but code in there. We don't totally stick to that, either.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:55
  • 3
    "So it's not semantically correct. Boo hoo. So what? Show me an actual, real-world problem caused by this." <-- Imo, this sentence completely invalidates this answer. The point is that we want documentation to be as good as it can possibly be. The problem here is that there are no agreed upon styling guides. Accusing users of "Getting worked up" over something really isn't constructive. Mis-used backtics, <kbd> tags, or other formatting will be edited out, but junk like that shouldn't be approved in the first place.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:56
  • @Cerbrus yeah, I agree we want different standards in Documentation and to be fair to the OP, he is mainly talking about Documentation here... I think I'll delete this answer. I still very much disagree with all this drama about flagging users on the main site who decorate their links this way.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:58
  • Flagging? wut? On the main site this can easily be edited out...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 12:59
  • @Cerbrus Yesterday I flagged http://stackoverflow.com/users/1577396/mr-green as all of his posts with JSFiddle demos use <kbd> tags to link to them, and it would simply take too long to edit all of his posts (from the OP's previous contribution about the issue)... that is just nonsense
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:00
  • Yea, that's silly.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:01
  • I don't get it - the Live Demo on JSBin button on my keyboard looks exactly like that one... what's the problem? Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:02
  • @Pekka웃 I agree with you here, it's annoying but nothing more. If people weren't getting rep for making edits just for this I think this meta wouldn't question exist.
    – DavidG
    Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:03
-16

If your main concern is people rep farming by making pointless edits, that's a problem with the main site as well, not just documentation. In that case, the usual flag users, moderators ban robo reviewers, etc. applies here. I think the problem with pointless rep earning is also echoed repeatedly throughout Meta, we're just going to have to wait for a fix to roll around for that.

If your main concern is people using the HTML tags incorrectly, that's due to lack of user education. Everyone gets the basic concept of using <b> for bold and so on, but not everyone is follows the philosophy of use tags for their intended semantic meaning. It can be difficult for the uninitiated to find proper information on the topic especially since they don't care, or because the HTML spec is actually quite vague on the subject. Their general attitude is "let the market decide" which leads to people essentially using semantic tags however they want.

Therefore it sounds like a perfect candidate for Documentation. I don't see any existing articles on the subject in the HTML or HTML5 sections. It may be a good candidate for "accessibility" too.

2
  • 1
    I don't think it's necessarily a lack of user education, I think for the most part the people who do this feel that <kbd> elements apply a better link style than links by themselves do here on Stack Overflow. Anyone who wants to find out what the <kbd> element is used for can simply Google "html kbd element"; the top results all make it quite clear what it should be used for. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 13:15
  • 29
    "If your main concern is people rep farming by making pointless edits, that's a problem with the main site as well, not just documentation." But they only get 2 rep for it in Q&A. They don't get reputation in perpetuity for it. Commented Jul 29, 2016 at 14:18

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .