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tag has problems. New users continually keep using it for MS Office Macros. Tag description clearly states it is not to be used for that.

This has been a topic of many Wiki discussions (general discussion; downvoted idea to deal with it; accepted wiki answer telling people to retag [macros]). The conclusion of these discussions is that there is nothing really to do about them besides occasionally cleaning up the tag.

That is what I did from time to time, I went and removed macros tags from questions about MS Office VBA. In the past, this was OK, but yesterday I got an editing ban for this.

Some of the questions already had an accepted and upvoted answer, some questions were upvoted themselves. There was nothing else to edit, I just removed tag, sometimes added or . And these were rejected.

So, what now?

  • If reviewers were right, then this is it for the tag? Nothing to be done about it?
  • If I was right, can someone lift my editing ban and warn the reviewers who clearly had no idea what they were rejecting?

This is getting really frustrating.

(Also, can I call the attention of the specific reviewers who denied my edits to this wiki discussion? With @ maybe?)

Ok, I understand it better now. My edits were rejected because there would have been other things to edit about those questions.

An interesting point is that there is no such reject tag ("more could have been done" or "doesn't solve all the issues"), and the one usually applied is not actually true to my edits:

This edit does not make the post even a little bit easier to read, easier to find, more accurate or more accessible. Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability.

So the question now really is: should an edit be rejected just because more could have been done? Aren't small steps taking us closer to the desired outcome: a good, well-structured, well-tagged question?

Also, something needs to be done about this wretched tag (Good description - not enough; protection idea - downvoted; cleanup - banned. Argh.). I'll keep thinking...

One last idea:

First "offenders" should be warned first. 7 days editing ban is way too harsh for edits that are deemed not bad, not destructive in any way, but merely "not enough".

This is actually ridiculous, frustrating, and teaches me and others affected to just stop trying to improve the content on Stack Overflow. :(

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    Just find some questions to answer to gain 55 reputation and you'll have the privilege to edit any post without it going into the queue....
    – rene
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 10:48
  • @rene lol you are right... :) Thanks! Still frustrating though.
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 10:50
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    Your reasoning and defense here of the edits doesn't sound unreasonable. Tag only edits are just not well received if the edit comment only says: Tags edited. If you would have linked one of the meta posts instead you might have had better results. Anyway, I pinged some of the reviewers to share their thoughts on the matter.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 10:54
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    I guess the reviewers didn't read the tag description. How about providing a more concise edit comment? Something like "removed macros tag. That tag should not be used for MS-OFFICE / VBA / macro languages. See tag description". (I know that some reviwers don't read the edit comments, but... worth a shot) Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 10:55
  • @ModusTollens and Rene You are both right, I'll use better edit descriptions in the future. Thanks!
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 10:58
  • Your reviews got noticed in the SOCVR and was discussed between the members I just pinged: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/29858309#29858309
    – rene
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 10:59
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    I'll speak for the couple of ones I rejected there. 1 2 3. In those 3, the edit did not fix other issues with the post; notably there is still a lot of fluff remaining (thanks, long intro, long paragraph...). This is why I personally rejected them. I understand that retagging posts with this tag is nice but you need to make full good edits. Or earn those 55 rep remaining :).
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:04
  • @Tunaki I get what you are saying. I didn't know that I always had to do full edits, fixing all problems in a post, not just part of them. I was just trying to focus on one task, cleaning up the Macros tag, and leaving the rest of the editing to other enthusiastic reviewers. :) Is this not allowed (supported, encouraged, whatever) then?
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:15
  • @Tunaki In the examples you mention, number 3 for example is a totally irredeemable question. I have flagged it, posted a comment, but in the mean time, I have removed the macros tag. In cases like this, where edits are pretty much pointless (I'm not gonna retype the code from a screenshot) am I not allowed to do tag edits either?
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:18
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    @vacip If the question is unsalvagable (and I agree that it is!) and the edit doesn't make it salvagable then I don't see the point in editing: I'd just close the question and move on.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:19
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    Quite often, the problem can be solved by improving one of the edits and then adding a comment to the editor with advice on how to make better edit suggestions. Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:22
  • @Tunaki I see, but closing the question actually leaves the question there with the wrong tag. That is... itching. And I can't scratch it. Deleting the question would solve it, but that rarely happens. Am I being OCD-kid here? Should I just let questions like this go? I'll read some meta on this...
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:22
  • @vacip Questions that are closed, downvoted and have no answers get deleted automatically after some time.
    – Floern
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 11:28
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    Thanks @RadLexus but that question doesn't answer the question: should an edit be rejected just because there was more to be done? That discussion is more or less bogged down at the +2 rep "farming", which is pretty ridiculous actually...
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 14:28
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    @Mogsdad either way, is not answering the question as presented "got edit-ban for curating content, why?"
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 3:08

2 Answers 2

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I'm one of the reviewers who rejected your suggested edits. Before doing so, I consulted this with people in SO Close Vote Reviewers chat room (see transcript).

Tag-only edits are generally discouraged, and this has been already discussed on Meta — see How to deal with serial tag-only edits from Sub 2k users? for example. When you edit, try to fix all issues with the question. Read carefully the description of the reject reason I choose:

This edit does not make the post even a little bit easier to read, easier to find, more accurate or more accessible. Changes are either completely superfluous or actively harm readability.

If a question has multiple issues, like spelling, grammar, formatting, and you only add or remove a tag, it's rather superfluous. Moreover, many of these questions should be closed — in this case editing is completely useless (see Stop polishing turds on Meta.SE).

Also, when you don't have editing privileges, when editing you see a box with information about editing:

We welcome all constructive edits, but please make them substantial. Avoid trivial edits unless absolutely necessary.

This should explain a lot. Before making an edit, ask yourself: is this a non-trivial, absolutely necessary edit? And if it is, it better have a good edit summary, not just "Tag edits".

Also note that, as @rene wrote in a comment:

A clear and descriptive comment can also help to inform reviewers why the edit was made. Tag edit is obvious from the diff, but if that comment gives the rationale, reviewers have more guidance on what to decide.

To conclude: you're welcome to edit questions to remove bad tags, but it shouldn't be the only change you make (unless there are no other problems with the question). Fix as much as you can. And when you see a question which should be closed, don't waste time editing it — nobody benefits from it. Flag (or vote to close if you have this privilege) and move on.

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    I would add that a clear and descriptive comment can also help to inform reviewers why the edit was made. Tag edit is obvious from the diff, but if that comment gives the rationale, reviewers have more guidance on what to decide.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 12:11
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    Tag-only edit are not discouraged, what are discouraged are edits that doesn't fix as many issues as can be fixed. If a user finds a good but mistagged question, it should be fixed. See my answer in the question you linked. Is the top one.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 12:42
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    @Braiam Yes, but it very rarely happens that there are no other issues that need to be fixed. I also noted that tag-only edits are OK when there are no other problems with the question: "To conclude: you're welcome to edit questions to remove bad tags, but it shouldn't be the only change you make (unless there are no other problems with the question)." Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 12:48
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    There's two separate questions here. One: should the edits have been suggested? Two: should the edit suggestions have been accepted? They don't have the same answer. You're right that trivial edits should be avoided. That doesn't mean that if they're suggested anyway, they should be rejected. You should read carefully the description of the close reason. It reads "completely superfluous". That wasn't the case. We used to have a "Too minor" rejection reason. That was taken away, and answers on Meta showed that reviewers are now expected to improve the edits if they see them as too minor
    – user743382
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 13:30
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    See Shog9's answer to Approve as too minor: "If it's really too minor, reviewers should demonstrate that by providing a not-minor edit. If the reviewer opts to build upon the edit instead of starting over from the current revision, then it isn't too minor! Done."
    – user743382
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 13:39
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    Thanks for the reply. I understand now more clearly what was happening back there. @hvd had a very good point though. My changes might have been minor, but they did "...make the post ... easier to find" and "more accurate or more accessible" Tags make a huge difference when searching for solutions. So the reject reason is actually not valid. The real reason for rejecting was that "more could have been done". Is that really reason enough to reject an otherwise useful (if, indeed, minor) edit?
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 10, 2016 at 14:00
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    There appears to be some tension between "substantive edits" and "even a little bit easier to read, easier to find" etc...
    – rogerdpack
    Commented Apr 11, 2016 at 14:24
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    I still find this ridiculous. Punishing people for making incremental improvements (and rejecting those improvements) just because there are still other improvements that could be made is absurd. If the suggested edit queue were of an unmanageable size then it may make some sense, but it's really not. If a tag is wrong, the tag is wrong and an edit that fixes it is an edit that we want. Period. The current approach is like firing a city council-employed street cleaner because he didn't clean every street in the country.... then deliberately making the streets he did clean dirty again. Commented Apr 11, 2016 at 14:56
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit In this case, the cleaner isn't expected to clean every street in the county, rather that the clean stripe they made up the middle of mud did not actually clean the one street. Reviewers are dealing with individual edits; whether a specific street has been needfully and sufficiently cleaned, without regard of whom the cleaner was, or whether they touched one street or a whole grid. The firing decision is made by council bureaucrats, based on individual assessments.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 3:59
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    And nobody has even brought up the usual whine-point: a photo of each "cleaned" street gets posted on the front page, so it had better be substantially clean!
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 3:59
  • @Mogsdad: And those council bureaucrats, after firing the poor guy, step onto the street and undo what cleaning he did accomplish, do they? They take mud and deliberately chuck it back into the middle of the road? Out of spite? Because that's what's going on here. Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 9:28
  • The analogy is broken, isn't it. Where a post could be improved, a reviewer should do that. Where it's nothing more than a title and a picture, and there are close votes already, then rejection is appropriate and necessary to ensure the question is put on hold and the OP gets the feedback they need.
    – Mogsdad
    Commented Apr 15, 2016 at 10:10
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Your edits were rejected because you didn't fix all the issues on the posts, not because we inherently are against tag only fixes, but any editor should fix as many issues as they can when editing the posts. Basically:

If you are going to make us proofread your edits, we better not find another issue with it.

I feel that the rejection reason isn't accurate, and if those reviewers had any issue with the posts you were editing they should have selected "Reject and Edit" which would show you as reject reason:

This edit did not correct critical issues with the post - view the revision history to see what should have been changed.

Which is what we wanted you to do. Fix as many issues as we saw with the post.

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    "If you are going to make us proofread your edits, we better not find another issue with it." - Why? Nowhere did it say in the help pages that all edit attempts must be full and complete edits. It just says that edits must improve the edited content. I now understand that it is frustrating, but still: Why reject a good edit?
    – vacip
    Commented Apr 11, 2016 at 19:15
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    So what's the point in the "Improve Edit" button? If reviewers don't want to improve edits, they shouldn't be chastising others for not doing the same. Commented Apr 11, 2016 at 19:43
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    @MacroMan Allowing people to improve edits is radically different from requiring reviewers to improve edits.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 11, 2016 at 19:46
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    @Servy I'm not saying there is a requirement for anybody to improve edits - I'm just pointing out that if a reviewer rejects an edit on the basis of "we found another issue with it" rather than improving the edit, then it's not fair to chastise the editor for not fixing those issues when the reviewer has effectively taken the exact same action. If the reviewer had actually improved the edit, then it's fair game. Commented Apr 11, 2016 at 19:54
  • @vacip you should make "substantial edits" always. Leave the post leaps and bounds better than how you found it. Is the reviewer job to make sure that you are doing a good edit, not that they should do the edit themself. As said, I would probably used "Reject and Edit" to make you aware that you should be more thorough with your edits.
    – Braiam
    Commented Apr 12, 2016 at 1:53

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