28

Background: Feed me, Seymour!

Every SO user has an RSS feed. For example, mine can be accessed at this link:

https://stackoverflow.com/feeds/user/2057919

[Note: Anyone can view any user's feed; you do not even have to be logged in to access it.]

My feed contains, as of right now, the 30 most recent, non-deleted questions, answers, and comments that I have posted. For example, it contains these two answers that I posted recently:

<entry>
        <id>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35802758/-/35802803#35802803</id>
        <re:rank scheme="http://stackoverflow.com">4</re:rank>
        <title type="text">Answer by Ed Cottrell for Reading SQL Server database</title>
        <author>
            <name>Ed Cottrell</name>
            <uri>https://stackoverflow.com/users/2057919</uri>
        </author>    
        <link rel="alternate" href="https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35802758/reading-sql-server-database/35802803#35802803" />
        <published>2016-03-04T17:50:14Z</published>   
        <updated>2016-03-04T18:34:59Z</updated>
        <summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;You&#39;re missing a space in your SQL and using the brackets incorrectly. Columns need to be separated by commas. The line should be:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;pre&gt;&lt;code&gt;string strSQL = &quot;SELECT Id, Item FROM [dbo].[Table]&quot;;
&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;
</summary>
    </entry>
    <entry>
        <id>https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35690571/-/35690597#35690597</id>
        <re:rank scheme="http://stackoverflow.com">1</re:rank>
        <title type="text">Answer by Ed Cottrell for Reduce Mobile Phone reception for app testing</title>
        <author>
            <name>Ed Cottrell</name>
            <uri>https://stackoverflow.com/users/2057919</uri>
        </author>    
        <link rel="alternate" href="https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35690571/reduce-mobile-phone-reception-for-app-testing/35690597#35690597" />
        <published>2016-02-29T01:33:41Z</published>   
        <updated>2016-02-29T01:33:41Z</updated>
        <summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;One realistic way to do it is put it in a weak Faraday cage. You can make one or buy a bag or other pre-manufactured cage that protects against radio transmissions. As long as it&#39;s not &lt;em&gt;too&lt;/em&gt; strong, it should weaken but not completely block the signal.&lt;/p&gt;
</summary>
</entry>

Why do we have these feeds?

As far as I can tell, these feeds serve only one purpose: to make it easy (using a feed reader, even one built into a browser or mail client) to monitor a user's activity.

I'm not sure why we would encourage this. After all, serial voting—voting for posts on the basis of the author, not the post—is one of only a couple of reasons we (moderators and staff) invalidate votes (the other reason being sockpuppetry). These feeds basically encourage anyone looking at the feed to go vote on a post whenever the subject of the feed posts something new. Of course, all of this information about a user's activity is already available on his or her profile page. But that's different: a user who wants to see what another user has posted has to go look at the profile page. With a feed, the SO site literally feeds that information to the end user.

I can think of only two possible uses for this:

  • The first, and probably the biggest, is to focus on what a particular user is doing for the purpose of voting on that user's content. Such votes based on the user, not the content of the post, cause problems; we even have an automatic script to invalidate them in most instances.
  • The second is to monitor high-profile users or people associated with particular companies or products. But this implies either (1) a special case of the first use, above, or (2) a situation in which users are doing product announcements on SO, which tends to be self-promotional at best and outright spam at worst.

Let's starve the beast.

I propose that we (1) ditch these feeds or (2) make them accessible only to moderators and the user who is the subject of the feed. Making them available to the world at large seems to serve no purpose other than enabling serial/targeted voting for specific users, which is counterproductive to the site's purpose.


Another user has pointed out to me that some users may use these feeds to learn about a topic by reading posts by experts in that topic. I'd be interested to know how many people do this. My suspicion is that these users are outnumbered by people using the feeds for less honorable purposes.

15
  • 12
    I just click on the user's [All Actions] tab to see what he's been up to. Is RSS really better at it? Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 16:36
  • 8
    @HansPassant the difference between an RSS app notifying you almost in real time that some user (who isn't me) who you're internet stalking just posted a snarky, probably rude, comment on a meta question (I'm not talking about me, I swear) vs. having to go to a website and refresh a page and remember which was the last thing you saw.
    – user1228
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 16:46
  • 35
    After checking the logs for the past 2 days, here are some really high level numbers - the /feeds/user/ url was hit 148k times on 2016-03-07 and 114k times so far today. It seems that removing this would impact a lot of users, etc.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 17:18
  • The Android app (and I believe the iOS app too) has a user feed like this built in - it shows the user's questions and answers, and for yourself, your comments too. @bluefeet: Those numbers seem wierdly high, any idea why ? Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 19:33
  • 2
    @JonasCz Yes, the apps have this. But that's akin to looking at the user's profile page: it requires the user who wants to view it to do something. An RSS feed is different. Its entire purpose is automated checking for updates.
    – elixenide Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 19:36
  • 1
    As I mentioned it's really high-level from the logs to just get a count of the hits to any url with /feeds/user/ - I didn't really dig any further into the data. I did a quick glance and it appeared valid, that was about it but keep in mind these numbers most likely also include crawlers, etc hitting the site.
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 19:40
  • 1
    @blue, if spiders can see all feeds, we have another kind of problem. Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 21:32
  • 3
    @FrédéricHamidi Giant, Shelob-esque spiders?
    – elixenide Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 21:36
  • 7
    @EdCottrell, yup, those ones. On second read feeds takes new meaning also ;) Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 21:39
  • 4
    EdCottrell is of course correct. Ditch these feeds. It's ridiculous, and completely pointless.
    – Fattie
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 22:03
  • 1
    I don't know if this is the same feed or not, but I used to subscribe to my own feed within Outlook as a sort of to-do list in case users commented or acted on any of my posts, back when the notification system wasn't so perfect. It made it easy to follow up instead of having to log in and check notifications. Now I just rely on the notifications.
    – Cᴏʀʏ
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 22:35
  • @Will There isn't a difference for the people writing automated programs to do it, though. This: stackoverflow.com/ajax/users/tab/… is hardly difficult to parse.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 22:26
  • @Rob and, of course, for people who have ESP it's the most trivial thing of all. But I'm not talking about .0000001% of the pop, or even the .002% who are developers. I'm talking about the 80% of all people who could spin up an RSS program and be internet stalking your account in under five minutes. But split them hairs, they ain't gonna do it themselves!
    – user1228
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 13:51
  • @Will Not to be that guy, but splitting hairs is the exact opposite of what I was doing, as I was saying the two methods are essentially the same :). Plus, that link works without an rss reader. And the percentage of people who are programmers on SO, you estimate to be 0.002%?? Are you sure about that?. Not sure why you're so aggressive about someone else's opinion, though. You are on meta, remember?
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 21:46
  • @rob percentages were a rough estimation of the entire world, not SO members. I guess I didn't (and still don't) understand the point of your comment. All I'm saying is that if I wanted to track your actions in real time, the RSS feeds in conjunction with an RSS reader would allow me to do so. So I can watch your every move, easily. Watching. Biding my time. Ready to strike with a snarky comment at any moment you post. Any other method requires manual action.
    – user1228
    Commented Mar 11, 2016 at 14:06

5 Answers 5

76

With the help of Shog9, I spent a bit of time looking at the feeds to see who or what are using them, and if we could see any shady behavior taking place.

We didn't find any evidence that they are being used to promote sockpuppetry or bad voting habits. We also have a lot of hits to the user feeds. These are coming from a variety of places, by a plethora of user agents. If we "ditched the feeds" as you are requesting, we could essentially be breaking random stuff being used everywhere which leads to bad karma.

I don't want bad karma or bad vibes coming my way for breaking people's stuff, so no, we aren't turning off the feeds or making them mod/user-only. Should we get some evidence that these are being used to promote bad behavior, then we will revisit it but until then... the feeds will live on.

6
  • 18
    (You don't have to link to Shog's profile, we know who he is.) Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:11
  • 17
    He needs more pings to his profile @FrédéricHamidi
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:12
  • 8
    Yay for promoting good karma.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:13
  • 6
    Well, that settles it. Thanks, @bluefeet!
    – elixenide Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:13
  • 17
    Interestingly, Shog9 is one of those people it makes sense to stalk. You can learn a lot about community building and how to design rules to promote desired behavior from the analytical posts Shog9 makes.
    – nwp
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 10:09
  • Can we see any statistics or a list of user agents using the user feeds?
    – buhtz
    Commented Jun 9, 2021 at 9:49
37

Don't ditch these feeds!

As a regular user of SO, I've come across a lot of users on SO who are really good at what they do (see my profile page for said list, it's not like it's a secret). They tend to answer and comment on difficult and interesting questions, and I've been able to gain a lot of insight just by stalking them following their activity through their respective RSS feeds.

Your first point sort of touches on this:

The first, and probably the biggest, is to focus on what a particular user is doing for the purpose of voting on that user's content. Such votes based on the user, not the content of the post, cause problems; we even have an automatic script to invalidate them in most instances.

But the conclusion you're drawing is total bullshit weirdly misguided. Yes, I'm specifically looking up answers and comments produced by specific users. But I'm doing this because the content of their posts tends to be extremely high. When I upvote it, it's because it deserves an upvote (or 10).

The feeds simply allow me to follow the half-dozen people I do in a convenient way.

14
  • 1
    Okay. This is still creepy, but okay. I will be blunt -- are you confident you're not distributing votes in a favorable way to the users you're "following"? Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 22:59
  • 8
    @FrédéricHamidi Why is it "creepy"? Are you confident they don't deserve the votes that I give them? Are you confident that they are the only users I am giving votes to? Are you confident that I am unable to determine the quality of posts?
    – Barry
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:07
  • You're the one who can answer those questions, not I. Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:08
  • 23
    @FrédéricHamidi Pretty sure since you/Ed are the ones accusing me of being fraudulent/shady/creepy, the burden is on you.
    – Barry
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:11
  • 2
    The feeds simply allow me to follow the half-dozen people I do in a convenient way. Take a deep breath, read that three times in a row and tell me it's not creepy again :p Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:14
  • 17
    @ FrédéricHamidi Only if you willfully separate it from all context...
    – Barry
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:25
  • 26
    @FrédéricHamidi Do you not subscribe to any blogs or twitter feeds? Just as creepy. Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 10:18
  • 4
    @FrédéricHamidi I use RSS feeds to follow the websites I like. Some of those are blog. Is that creepy? Am I stalking the blog's authors? No. This is exactly the same. Not creepy at all.
    – nico
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 12:56
  • I find quite interesting that everyone is focusing on the "creepy" part of my comment (you're free to disagree, guys, I can live with being a dinosaur) and not on the rest, namely that votes may be focused on the users one follows. I got no feedback on that for some reason. Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 13:37
  • 4
    @FrédéricHamidi Except that I did give you feedback on that - I told you the burden of proof to demonstrate questionable activity lies with you. You responded to that by... calling my activity creepy.
    – Barry
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 13:52
  • 1
    @Barry, I did not call you creepy, I called the principle of following others in a convenient way creepy (which is well within my rights, I double-checked). Concerning the burden of proof, since votes are anonymous, telling me I should be the one investigating is a non-sequitur -- it is just not possible. You, however, are well aware of the distributions of your votes, so you could enlighten us. Note in passing that I didn't accuse you of anything -- I only expressed doubts about the distribution of votes in this situation and asked you about it. Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 13:56
  • 2
    @FrédéricHamidi Of course it's an accusation. Moreover, it's not even a well-defined accusation. What do you even consider a "favorable" distribution of votes? One thing you could easily check is that I have 1200+ votes on questions and the users I follow in total have asked ~50.
    – Barry
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 15:28
  • @Barry, maybe I used too many weasel words in there, I was trying not to be too blunt. I think it's obvious I failed to do that. On the other hand, you could have replied to my first comment with your last sentence and that would have been fine. You should also realize that I cannot easily check that because I do not know and cannot see which users you follow. Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 16:52
  • 2
    @FrédéricHamidi Except, as the post indicated, they are listed in my profile page.
    – Barry
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 17:10
23

Small pockets that inadvertently provide harbor to those with motives that aren't sincere are a hallmark of any system in which creativity and expression thrive. This is true in communities, it's true in games, and it's especially true in places where both of these things intersect.

While it's tempting to fill these pockets so that they can't be used in bad faith, the reality is that the vast majority of people do use them in good faith. If we begin to optimize too much for the worst, we risk eroding the best.

But the problem you're trying to solve is enormous, frustrating and you're exposed to it constantly. The feeds are simply a symptom here. We're working to drastically improve the automated vote reversal detection to the point that moderators will very infrequently even need to think about it.

Imagine how much more of an impact you could have as a moderator if you were able to do other, much more interesting and satisfying stuff in the same amount of time it takes to chase down a voting ring. Stack Overflow moderators need more time to lead, to set examples, to help set the tone we're all proud to impart on folks that find and use the site.

Sure, some of your job as a mod is that of an authority figure, some of it is that of a philosopher, some of it is that of a janitor - but we never envisoned some of it being that of an auditor. That's where we've hit, and we owe it to you and those you serve to fix it.

1
  • 3
    Thanks for the insights. Good stuff.
    – elixenide Mod
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 12:43
8

I don't feel like gaming SO is as big of a problem as this at all. Sure, hypothetically it's a pretty effective tool to serially upvote someone, but the systems are already in place to detect that sort of thing.

The feature is nice to have, and while I don't use it, apparently many people do, and I have a real hard time believing everyone's doing it for nefarious purposes.

What about people embedding it on their blogs to show off their work, what about people consuming it for their own data purposes, what about people who are just plain fascinated by people watching? A lot of different types of uses get removed purely because we're worried they're abusing a system.

Maybe there can be some sort of tracking to get some actual data, how it was affects votes if it's that important, but this doesn't warrant removing the feature entirely.

4
  • 3
    Trust me, gaming the system is a very big problem. A huge amount of moderator time (and, as far as I can tell, employee time) gets spent on cleaning up various forms of fraudulent voting.
    – elixenide Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 22:26
  • 2
    What about people embedding it on their blogs to show off their work, what about people consuming it for their own data purposes, [disagree with the rest]. We have an RESTful API that thin clients can consume, and nowadays it means a reference implementation would be available on GitHub in 6 to 8 days should feeds disappear overnight, I believe. I'm not worried at all about these cases. Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 22:30
  • 2
    @FrédéricHamidi Doesn't that wreck the point of this proposal then? If you expect that it will be automated quickly for 'acceptable' purposes, doesn't that just return the tool to those you are worried are using this for 'unacceptable' purposes? Since the data is publicly available, the only argument for this feature is that it makes that data harder to access. Therefore you can't say on the other hand that ease of access will still be there 'for those who need it' after this feature is put in place. Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 15:33
  • @Grade, it's not only about ease of access. Requiring REST calls to our API for this would correlate better the "following" of a user and the associated activity (e.g. votes, which were the main topic of this question). It is not really possible to do that with the RSS feed -- the request for the feed can be impossible to correlate with the requests for the votes, especially if the user is using a third-party aggregator. Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 16:48
-1

feeds serve only one purpose: to make it easy (using a feed reader, even one built into a browser or mail client) to monitor a user's activity.

A few other purposes:

2
  • 2
    Don't the first two boil down to the quoted text "monitor a user's activity" anyways?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 17:31
  • @BoltClock The reasons are content-oriented, not user-oriented as the OP reasoned above Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 18:21

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .