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For questions about the intricacies of formal or authoritative specifications of programming languages and environments. Typical questions concern gaps between "what will usually work in practice" and "what the spec actually guarantees", but problems with understanding the structure of the spec are also on topic.

This tag just rubs me the wrong way. Is it really an effective characterization, or a borderline meta-tag?

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  • 5
    Looks like a junk tag to me: catb.org/jargon/html/L/language-lawyer.html
    – Kev Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:22
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    Why on Earth would 21 people follow that tag?
    – Bill the Lizard Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:26
  • 3
    @BilltheLizard: The vast majority of questions tagged [language-lawyer] are also tagged [c] or [c++].
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:28
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    It's mostly a C++ tag that's used to separate out questions that are about pedantic details rather than problems that happen to be written in C++. And as such, I regularly add the tag to such questions.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:29
  • I would vote for burninating. It seems like obscure jargon, and it isn't all that self-explanatory. If someone has a question about a programming language, I think they should just tag it with the language's tag.
    – smcg
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:29
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    @smcg: It appears that the C++ folks are using it as a "folder" to separate the genuine C++ programming questions from the ones having to do with obscure language semantics.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:31
  • So, it's like [c++-faq] but without the c++- (lol "c plus plus minus") prefix?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:32
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    @BoltClock'saUnicorn: More like [c++-obscure-specifications-faq]
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:33
  • 4
    How about merging it with language-specifications?
    – nhahtdh
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:52
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    I find it amusing that those complaining about the metataggery, esotericism and pedantic nature of language-lawyer questions have gone to such lengths to pick apart its true meaning. Irony, much? :) Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 21:43
  • 1
    Since we're being language-lawyers.. no, there's no irony. There's a poetic coincidence, but definitely no irony ;)
    – Paul Hicks
    Commented Nov 9, 2015 at 10:17

5 Answers 5

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The tag is a(nother) C++ peculiarity which users of other languages will most likely not understand, but which is quite important and known in the C++ community.

C++ isn't so much designed and specified (which is one of the reasons why "language-specifications" doesn't cut it), as it is grown — or, rather: exuberantly mushroomed. Remember, we're talking the language which enabled one of its most notorious features, template meta-programming, by accident. The latest edition of the C++ standard has ~1.3k pages (the one before that, BTW, had "only" 700 pages), plus it includes the C standard by reference.
That makes for a lot of room for language lawyers, which made this term a rather well-known one. I probably first encountered the term in comp.lang.c++.moderated about 10-15 years ago.

In C++, a language-lawyering question would be one that discusses some peculiarity of C++ which 80% of the users of the language either (hopefully) never run into, or, if they happen to run into it, then they don't realize that they've run into even if they had read that question just yesterday, or, if they realize it, they would ask a question that ought to be answered by "just don't do this".

Language-lawyering mostly involves pedantic wankery and throwing standard references at each other, but, occasionally, something useful comes out of it.1

On Stackoverflow.com, if you have a C++ question that asks for a language lawyer, you usually hope Johannes sees it. If SO failed me on such a question, I'd ask on comp.lang.c++.moderated, where all the luminaries read and, sometimes, post.


1 Erwin Unruh told me once he always meant to prove templates are a Turing-complete compile-time language. He never got around doing so before it was proven by (his own!) example through the emerging template meta-programming. But had he proved it, this would have been useful language-lawyering.

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    I think this explanation makes the strongest case for keeping the tag. It is definitely a useful categorization for those with this very specialized interest, and would conceivably be followed, filtered upon, and Google searched. +1 from me. Commented Aug 3, 2012 at 14:14
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    why isn't this tag called c++-language-lawyer?
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 3, 2012 at 15:19
  • 4
    @gnat: Since it's possible to search for [C++] [language-lawyer], I don't think we need to make it more specific.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 3, 2012 at 18:29
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    @gnat: Because the term "language lawyer" is not at all specific to C++. It can very easily apply to C, and it could easily apply to any language. See my answer. Commented Aug 3, 2012 at 21:33
  • @KeithThompson the largest size C specification I could find - ANSI C standard (C99) ISO/IEC 9899:TC2 - is less than 600 pages pdf - this doesn't look impressive compared to "~1.3k pages" mentioned by sbi for C++ standard. In fact, it's about same size as Java 7 edition JLS which is about 600 pages as well. Are C (ANSI?) or Java really as complicated as C++?
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 6, 2012 at 16:13
  • 3
    @gnat: The latest C standard is closer to 700 pages (the link is to the public draft). No, C isn't as complicated as C++; I never said it was. But it's certainly complicated enough to support language-lawyering. My point is simply that "language lawyer" is in no way a C++-specific term. Commented Aug 6, 2012 at 19:06
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    @gnat: why isn't this tag called c++-language-lawyer? because that breaks normalisation ;) Commented Feb 20, 2013 at 15:43
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit well... what about something like cpp-la-la then? :)
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 20, 2013 at 15:50
  • @KeithThompson: The n3797 version of C++14 I mostly use is 1366 pages. However there is something like 800 pages under 'library'.
    – david.pfx
    Commented Mar 22, 2014 at 1:34
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    The only knowledgeable answer here.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 21:34
  • There are probably questions in common-lisp that could benefit from language-lawyer. It's another language that grew over a long period of time, has lots of places where even if 90% of implementations do it one way, the spec still leaves it open, etc. Commented May 28, 2014 at 16:42
  • I agree with @KeithThompson that this isn't really C++ specific (despite our disagreement about just how generally applicable it is), but I suspect C++ is the most language-lawyer-able language there is. (This is almost certainly true if you restrict the field to mainstream languages.) Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 22:39
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The term "language lawyer" is not at all specific to C++. The C++ standard is sufficiently large and complex that it's a rich source of language-lawyerly questions, but the term can easily apply to just about any language, especially one defined by an official standard document. (For example, I consider myself a C language lawyer; I used to be an Ada language lawyer as well.)

I'd say that any question that's about the exact meaning of the wording in a language standard, without necessarily involving practical programming questions, is an appropriate question.

A hypothetical example: A question about the exact meaning of "lvalue" in C would be a good language-lawyer question. Practically speaking, the meaning is reasonably clear (it's an expression that designates an object, derived from the fact that it can appear on the left side of an assignment), but the three released versions of the ISO standard have three differently worded definitions of the term.

Tagging a question has two benefits: it brings it to the attention of strange people like me who actually like questions like that (I have it in my list of favorate tags), and it warns away those who are more interested in practical programming questions.

I say keep it.

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  • I understand that downvotes on meta merely express disagreement, but I'm still a bit bewildered. What's the harm of keeping the language-lawyer tag? It's meaningful, and there are some of us who actually follow it. Commented Aug 6, 2012 at 21:36
  • 2
    This term was even used in the official Python documentation as late as version 2.5 to describe the "Language Reference" section. So this term is quite familiar to erudite Pythonistas. I say keep it as well.
    – John Y
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 20:20
  • Yes, yes, this applies to any language! For instance, it applies to Ada! (/end sarcasm) I agree that it applies to certain languages that aren't C++, but lots of languages don't even actually have official standards. Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 22:23
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    @KyleStrand: I don't understand the sarcasm. Lots of languages do have standards, and plenty of languages that don't have formal standards are still susceptible to language-lawyering. Can you make your point without the sarcasm? (I'm honestly not sure what your point is). Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 22:26
  • @KeithThompson My point is that Ada is an excellent example of a language that, like C++, has a very complex standard; so it's therefore a very bad example of a language demonstrating that "any" language is susceptible to language-lawyering. For instance, is bash a good language-lawyer candidate? What about Perl v. 1? Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 22:29
  • @KyleStrand: Point taken; I've weaseled the wording a bit. Perl v.1? Maybe not. Bash? Its manual is about half a megabyte, mostly plain text, so why not? Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 23:27
  • @KeithThompson It's got complexities and oddities, sure, but a manual is not a standard; how much nitpicky pedantics can you really get into with Bash? Your script either works, or it's buggy, or there's a bug in Bash (in which case your script is still buggy, in a sense). And maybe this isn't even a distinction of how big or complex the documentation for the language is; I'd be more open to the idea that the subset of Bash that attempts to conform to the POSIX standard for command-shells is open to language-lawyering--but they're you're really language-lawyering POSIX, not Bash. Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 23:36
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    @KyleStrand: Since we're in agreement that "language-lawyer" can reasonably apply to a number of different languages, I don't think it's worthwhile, shall we say, language-lawyering the exact set of languages it applies to. Commented Nov 6, 2015 at 23:44
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    @KeithThompson I was curious about this, so I made a query that checks what tags are used alongside [language-lawyer] on StackOverflow. Language Lawyering seems to be an overwhelmingly C(++) phenomenon, at least if StackOverflow post count is anything to go by. Out of 4,723 LL posts, 3,637 of them are C++, 892 are C. Compare to: Java: 76, C#: 41, Python: 33, Ruby: 3, JS: 39, Rust: 12, (g)Fortran: 5, Perl: 4, Bash: 3, Shell: 3, Haskell: 2, VB: 2, PHP: 2, Swift: 1, Powershell: 1, ObjC: 0, Erlang: 0
    – Alexander
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 6:21
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I think it's worth keeping. It separates out actual questions that, for example, contain actual C++ code, from those which are purely about one interpretation or another of an obscure clause in the Standard.

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    What about [language-features] or [language-design]? Seems like this is already adequately covered by other tags.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:36
  • 2
    Also a multitude of others in http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/language-*
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:38
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    [language-design] would surely imply a question about why the spec says what it does, rather than what it says and how to interpret it, at the very least.
    – Puppy
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:43
-11

Merge with

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  • Vote to agree or disagree.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:55
  • 5
    [language-specifications] is great because 1) it's a much more widely-recognized term 2) it's applicable to other languages and not just C++ 3) people will actually search for it... I know I'll add that to my favorite tags if we can somehow clean it up and make it a proper tag (whatever that means). Although it should be mentioned that its very meaning also means it probably can't stand on its own without an accompanying language tag. So, I dunno...
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:00
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    Let this sit for at least a couple days before taking any action. That'll give all the C++ regulars a chance to see this.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:01
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    I think destroying the tag would be a poor idea. "language lawyer" carries a connotation substantially different from "language specifications", so merging the two would result in substantial information loss. In theory the difference probably should be trivial, but in fact it's fairly substantial. Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:13
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    @JerryCoffin: I guess the fact that it carries an "I are pedantic" connotation is what bothers me about it. I don't see how that is relevant to the tagging/categorization process.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:14
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    It makes quite a bit of difference in both the type of answer expected and the group of people likely to be interested in answering the question. On a meta-meta level (so to speak) I think the push to remove this (among other things) is basically an attempt at serving the people who almost never use the site, at the expense of those who do so regularly. Google is important, but frequent users are too. Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:26
  • Can't see this answer..., but seems to be the most important. Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 20:26
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    @JerryCoffin: I'd feel better about this tag if the Tag Wiki had some relevant content in it... A FAQ list, perhaps?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 21:59
  • @BoltClock'saUnicorn: How is "language-lawyer" not applicable to languages other than C++? See my answer for further discussion. Commented Sep 24, 2013 at 20:29
  • @KeithThompson: The tag is not language-specific, although it's used mostly by the C++ and C crowd, in no small part because they have this thing called Undefined Behavior. Also, we're talking about something that happened a year ago?
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2013 at 20:31
  • -17 and the most specific argument to having both is essentially "they're different"... Commented May 9, 2014 at 17:45
  • @Dukeling: Check out the checkmark.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 9, 2014 at 17:47
  • Well, the intertwined question would be whether having a language-specifications tag is even useful - are there questions that aren't quite on the language-lawyer level, but are still about specifically about language-specifications in the same language (the main argument in the accepted answer, as I read it, is that C++ is special)? And, @ 42 open questions (five of those tagged C++) for language-specifications, it really won't add a lot to the noise to have those questions and language-lawyer's classify as one and the same. Well, those are my thoughts at least. Commented May 9, 2014 at 18:02
-12

Burninate. Seems like a meta tag, and I can't seriously believe that anyone will ever google, "Language-Lawyer".

I wrote this post two years ago; and it seems to be as true today as it was two years ago. Here's a present day screen shot of the first 'fold' for Language lawyer:

enter image description here

As you can see, the first two links are simply duplicates of one another; the third link is another definition, the fourth is a Stack Overflow tag (not particularly helpful, unless you're actually looking for a language-lawyer question -- and even then, you get to scroll through a few pages to find what you're looking for), and the fifth is about sign language.

Notice that all the sponsored ads are about finding a lawyer. I didn't include results 6-10 because they are even less relevant than results 1-5 (if such a thing were possible).

This is the very definition of a meta tag -- it's a tag that can't tell you about the problem on its own. A commenter brought up 'civilians' and 'UItableViewCell'.

Here are the first five google results for UItableViewCell:

UItableViewCell

As you can see, all of the search results hone in exactly on a language, a problem, and even a video(!). While I wouldn't suggest having UItableViewCell be the only tag on a question; it would get us much farther than having language-lawyer be the only tag on a question.

People like it, I get that. But it is a meta tag.

There's also the argument that

People are following the tag deliberately, using it as a marker of questions that are interesting to them. That's an exceptionally good indication of utility.

People also used to ask others to "ignore the fun tag", so they could keep the fun tag around. The problem is; while these questions may be 'fun' they're not really in the scope of Stack Overflow.

Likewise; the Language-Lawyer tag serves the interest of a very small group of people who:

  1. Enjoy arguing language semantics.
  2. Like to post teaser questions just to argue language semantics.
  3. Have these questions show up in the moderator queue due to flags.

3 alone is a good reason to remove the tag; and #1 and #2 also are outside the scope of Stack Overflow. Not to mention, these questions usually fall this very basic tenet of our site:

Focus on questions about an actual problem you have faced. Include details about what you have tried and exactly what you are trying to do.

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    I think you hit the important part there. "Would someone search for this when seeking questions/answers?" should be one of the top criteria for a legitimate tag. Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 17:43
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    Another rule of thumb that's come up in previous discussions is "would it make sense for this to be the only tag on a question?"
    – Pops
    Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:00
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    I can not only imagine somebody using it, but can say with certainty that it has been used. Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:02
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    @GeorgeStocker: Yes, I meant used to find questions/answers here via Google. Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 18:27
  • I googled it... Commented Aug 2, 2012 at 19:08
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    I think sbi makes a good case here. It's certainly not harmful to keep it around, and seems quite helpful to the subset of people that are interested in it. Commented Aug 3, 2012 at 14:20
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    People are following the tag deliberately, using it as a marker of questions that are interesting to them. That's an exceptionally good indication of utility. Commented Aug 9, 2012 at 21:00
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    @DonalFellows: I follow the tag deliberately. I find it an exceptionally good indication of authority.
    – david.pfx
    Commented Mar 22, 2014 at 1:37
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    "If the outside audience has to guess what your terminology means, it's not good terminology" That's totally bizarre. All of the iOS tags, say ("UItableViewCell!") would be completely meaningless to civilians. SO is for experts to discuss arcane details with other experts. Civilians are irrelevant.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 11, 2014 at 21:37

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