67

I notice that there are some tags that have in the description "DO NOT USE". For example the tag has the following excerpt description:

DO NOT USE: Select some more descriptive tags, like html css php http or the like

Inevitably people DO use these tags. Why are they present as tag options?

Some additional tags with "DO NOT USE":

2015 M/D     9/11 10/26  11/5 11/8 11/11 11/13 11/14 11/17 11/19 11/21
     519   528   495   495   492   490   490   490  490   490
     39    39    39    39    34    30    28    20   20    20
        236   236   196   154   154   130   130   110  100    95
            ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?   665   660  650   600
    1013  1028  1014  1014  1000  1000  1000  1000 1000  1000
      1424  1424  1421  1416  1400  1400  1400  1400 1400  1300  
        ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?    ?  1350
 2329  2344  2311  2308  2300  2300  2299  2290 2290  2290  
          ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?    ?  2950
          ?     ?     ?  3978  3900  3890  3886  3880 3880  3800
      5578  5649  5622  5592  5580  5500  5497  5480 5470  5400
     6823  6935  6902  6824  6780  6770  6760  6760 6760  6700
       13086 12387 11736 11445 11086 10870 10750 10260 9940  9170    
          ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?     ?    ? 23830

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  • 23
    not to be used?
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 18:21
  • 17
    If these tags were deleted someone would recreate them in a New York Minute, and then without this very useful description. (Someone with >1,500 rep at least.)
    – Jongware
    Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 21:53
  • 19
    @Jongware there is a concept of tag black listing though. If they truly should not be used then surely they should be blacklisted. And if it isn't the case that they should not be used then this description should be changed, Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 22:55
  • 6
    The only way to remove them from the tag options is to remove their existence. I've made a start, removing the tag from posts 1 at a time. Help out! If we all chip in by removing the tag from a dozen or so posts a day, it'll be gone in no time. Don't forget to fix up other obvious problems, up to and including voting to close the question. Commented Sep 15, 2014 at 11:23
  • @MartijnPieters is there a list of all of these tags?
    – Dan
    Commented Sep 15, 2014 at 13:28
  • @Dan: nope, you'll have to find them manually. But Google can help here. Commented Sep 15, 2014 at 13:30
  • A few of those tags have few enough questions to be relatively easy to clean out. If I (or someone else) does so; do I need to make a separate meta post to get them blacklisted instead of being roomba'd and promptly resurrected by new crap taggers? Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 19:01
  • @MartijnPieters Is there a recommendation to deal with someone acting on this suggestion of your, but who is actively retagging hundreds of questions (over 600 today alone) per day? Or should we leave them alone to carry on like this?
    – DavidG
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 15:16
  • @DavidG: is that the only thing they are doing (retagging)? Or are they also addressing other issues with the posts (removing Thank you, voting to close off-topic posts, etc.)?
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 15:17
  • @MartijnPieters Only retagging.
    – DavidG
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 15:18
  • @DavidG: can you flag one of the posts they edited (approved edit if it was a suggested edit) and explain this in an other moderator attention flag? A moderator can then take a look and see if they need to have a chat.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 15:19
  • @MartijnPieters Thanks Martijn, I've done that.
    – DavidG
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 15:22
  • @pnuts Well I would have suggested you join us in SOCVR but you're already here now, so welcome :)
    – DavidG
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 16:01
  • @pnuts Ah, but you can suggest questions to be closed.
    – DavidG
    Commented Nov 26, 2015 at 16:06

3 Answers 3

28

I am going to give a very opinionated answer, and you all can agree or disagree with votes.

IMO, "DO NOT USE" is there to solve a problem in our tag system, yet it does not practically solve anything.

As I see it, the purpose of the tags is to make questions discoverable. Experts are supposed to favorite the tags on their area of expertise, and they will get to discover the tagged questions and answer them. Can you tell me any other important use of the tagging system? (They will be useful for search engines, but that is discoverability again)

When a tag is marked "DO NOT USE", it is probably because the tag is too broad or vague that you cannot tell the nature of the questions by looking at the tags. The tag is useless, and no expert would favorite it.

Some may argue that the users should read the tag wiki before they tag it. While this is true, I don't see it as the core problem. The core problem is we have let our tag collection to grow without control.

If the system does not enforce the DO NOT USE flag, it is practically useless as well. So if I answer the question my answer would be: "DO NOT USE" serves no practical purpose.


Today, when I open the tags tab in homepage, I see a 9 x 4 matrix which has 1117 pages. That's 40000+ tags. And can someone tell me how many tags have 0 or 1 followers? (examples: (1), (0), (1), and many more). I have no means of finding out all of them, but I am sure that would be quite large.

In my opinion, a tag is a micro version of a Stack Exchange site. It gathers a community of enthusiasts (who want to ask questions) and experts (who want to answer) around it.

Now we don't let any site to graduate as a Stack Exchange site (or even a beta site), do we? We have a very controlled process for that, ensuring the site has enough community support. I believe that tags should also be subject to such a screening, but that need not to be as rigid as the process for a SE site.

12
  • 5
    A tag does not need followers to be useful, though that helps (and is by no means sufficient). A tag needs to be a useful categorization for C++, thus marking which area of programming the question is about (or purports to be about, if mis-tagged, which should be corrected). Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 10:39
  • @Deduplicator: Can you tell me how categorization by a tag is useful in the context of StackExchange when it does not have followers? And why having followers is "by no means sufficient"? I think we programmers tend to categorize everything deeper and deeper, even when that does not make sense. Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 10:54
  • There were quite some tags destroyed (by properly tagging all afflicted questions) which had at least one follower. Also, if there are multiple tags with the same meaning, they tend to get merged. Finding a tag without at least one follower (but with at least one question) is quite difficult, it's quite unbelievable what the users here follow. Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 11:01
  • 1
    The problem is, we don't have a good tagging system @Deduplicator. Anyone with 1500+ rep can create anything. And tag review process is very weak IMO. Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 11:15
  • Apart from being useful for followers, tags appear to play a significant role in SE's internal search function. See a bit of incidental discussion in this post on meta.SE.
    – Air
    Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 23:39
  • 2
    @AirThomas: And too broad tags will make users do bad tagging, which in turn will make the search functions less effective. Wouldn't it? :) Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 23:57
  • 2
    I wouldn't make an assumption either way about that. I'm just pointing out one aspect of the utility of unfollowed tags.
    – Air
    Commented Sep 17, 2014 at 15:15
  • Can you tell me how categorization by a tag is useful in the context of StackExchange when it does not have followers? You can't follow a tag until someone has created it, so there will always be a period where a tag has no followers.
    – MrLore
    Commented Sep 17, 2014 at 17:24
  • 7
    The point is that “do not use” is supposed to be temporary, while an active cleanup effort is in progress. If “do not use” stays for two years, there is a problem, but it isn't a problem with the tag system, rather that the ongoing cleanup effort has stopped for some reason or other. Commented Sep 17, 2014 at 17:38
  • @MrLore: Well, there's the person who created the tag, I think the creator should automatically be the first follower (we have orphan tags because this is not happening). And if the tag does not gain momentum (e.g. 0 questions/answers for n days) it should be automatically deleted. Commented Sep 18, 2014 at 7:25
  • 1
    @Gilles: I take yours as a fair point. But it appears that system is not much of a help with this cleanup process. We can't even find the "DO NOT USE" flagged tags using the system, as Martijn has explained in a comment to the original post. Commented Sep 18, 2014 at 7:28
  • @Krumia Each “do not use” tag is supposed to be associated with a relatively recent meta thread that concludes that the tag should go. Commented Sep 18, 2014 at 8:02
34

There were a vast number of questions tagged with these tags before the decision to make them verboten was taken. Rather than try to deal with all of them and then ban the tag, this compromise was put in place to allow the tags to die gracefully as they get removed a few at a time over the months and years.

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  • 43
    Can we enforce (via technical measures) "DO NOT USE" for new questions, then? Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 17:16
  • Last I heard we couldn't, but there could have been changes behind the scene that I am unaware of. Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 17:17
  • 25
    Maybe use of a tag containing "DO NOT USE" in its excerpt should trigger an auto-flag VLQ... Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 19:04
  • 1
    Do the moderators have any tools to monitor the use of "DO NOT USE" tags?
    – Montag451
    Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 19:36
  • 3
    People not reading the tag's description. (What's new.) I'd suggest automatically removing 10 Internet Points from their rep, were it not that this is a common fault of new users.
    – Jongware
    Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 20:44
  • 4
    @EnmosProje - no we don't. Unfortunately. We can't ban new uses of a tag without removing from existing questions - well not very easily and if we don't want to run the risk of leaving lots of questions untagged.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 21:01
  • 3
    @ChrisF Why would that be a risk? I'm on a touch screen device so can't tell how many followers website has but, assuming the number is low, why would it be better to leave a question with a single uncared about tag than no tag at all? Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 21:54
  • @MartinSmith - not my decision, so I don't know the full reasoning behind it, but untagged questions are harder to find and deal with.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 21:56
  • 4
    Hmmm, the link you supplied earlier seems to find them! Commented Sep 14, 2014 at 21:58
  • 4
    @MartinSmith Even if you can find the untagged questions, you're now looking at all untagged questions. It much easier to look through all of the questions with a particular tag requiring deletion, because those questions are likely going to be handled in a similar fashion. It'll require less mental context switching to deal with the posts.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 15, 2014 at 14:18
  • 3
    I'm confused. What's wrong with chess?
    – Athari
    Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 0:35
  • 3
    @Athari It's a meta tag. "Chess" is a game, and on itself has nothing to do with programming. A tag's existence invites people to only tag a question with that tag, while they should instead tag the question with a language tag and a tag related to the problem. A future visitor with the same question is unlikely to have a problem with chess too, but the solution to the question asked can still help that future visitor. Tl;dr Chess is a meta tag. Meta tags are bad for find-ability.
    – Sumurai8
    Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 6:21
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    @Sumurai8 Except for Chess AI. You can be an expert in a particular subset of AI.
    – Izkata
    Commented Sep 16, 2014 at 14:45
  • 2
    @Athari chess was slated for removal as part of a grossly mishandled tag cleanup effort two years ago, where one person's decision to remove a tag got it on the removal list no matter how much opposition there was. If it's survived that far, I'm going to say that it needn't be removed after all, or else maybe it does but only after a specific meta discussion. There, the tag wiki no longer says “do not use”. Commented Sep 17, 2014 at 17:29
  • 1
    @JeffreyBosboom Yes, it is possible to blacklist a tag (for Stack Exchange staff only). This is rarely done because blacklisting a tag prevents questions that have the tag from being edited, even if it's just to update a link or fix formatting, which can be done by someone who doesn't know what the correct tags would be. If a tag needs outright removal, Stack Exchange staff can do that directly, with no need for editing. Commented Sep 17, 2014 at 17:40
10

“Do not use” is a temporary indication on a tag wiki, meaning that the tag should not be used and there is an ongoing effort to clean up that tag.

Sometimes a tag is just useless. In this case, after a meta discussion that establishes that the tag is indeed meaningless, Stack Exchange staff can directly remove the tag.

Other tags need to be removed, but not instantly, because they do convey partial information. This is the case for ambiguous tags: questions with ambiguous tags need to be manually edited to select a replacement tag. This is also the case for some tags that are strong indications of bad questions (there aren't so many of these left, as there has been a lot of cleanup effort these past few years, but a few are still found occasionally).

Once a tag is no longer used on any question, Stack Exchange staff can blacklist it, to prevent it from being re-created. It is possible to provide a short (about one sentence) guidance message when someone tries to use a blacklisted tag; this is useful for tag names that are ambiguous. For example, once it has been cleaned up, could be blacklisted, making it impossible to use, and provide “Select some more descriptive tags, like etc.” as guidance.

When a tag wiki says “do not use”, it should always provide information in the tag wiki body:

  • Link to the meta thread about this tag, where the conclusion was that the tag should be removed.
  • Provide guidance as to which tags to use instead (or state that the concept doesn't warrant a tag, or state that a question about this topic is likely to be off-topic, etc.).

Some tags were slated for removal as part of the Great Stack Overflow tag question cleanup of 2012 (now deleted). This tag cleanup was seriously mishandled, and tags were mistakenly removed or slated for removal. A meta discussion about removing a tag should always be focused on one tag or a small group of closely-related tags. If you see tags marked as “do not use” where the only justification is this deleted thread, consider starting a new meta thread, and remove the “do not use” mark while the meta discussion hasn't come to a decision.

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  • 1
    As this question isn't cached anywhere on the internet (that I've been able to find), can you prove to us <10k users that those tags were in fact mishandled? No offence, but if a deleted question means nothing then second-hand information about that question is worth even less.
    – MrLore
    Commented Sep 17, 2014 at 23:33
  • 2
    @MrLore I doubt that I can prove it to you if you won't take my word as to what's in that thread. For starters, 400 tags (exactly, I counted) are listed in the question. This is far too large for any review. Add to that that edits to the list to remove tags whose legitimacy had been demonstrated were summarily rolled back — that's visible in the question history. There are traces on meta like meta.stackexchange.com/q/144393, meta.stackexchange.com/q/134382, the present discussion about chess, … Commented Sep 18, 2014 at 6:34

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