They are doing it all day and I can see it. Is this behaviour reportable?
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4I can see and hear them from my seat which is the back of their desks asking favor to vote each other with stackoverflow page opened. And one of the guys asked me long time ago to do the same thing for him when we were in the same team but I declined.– anonCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 4:43
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62Ah, so you're talking about your own coworkers... I had suspected that when I read your question. I'll post an answer. I wonder if we should get your name removed from this meta post since you have posted here and we'd hate to see you get into trouble for doing the right thing.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 4:45
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2Great, I've contacted the community team to get this done for you.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 5:01
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54I wish this were less prevalent than it obviously is. I'll see a question, see a rubbish answer to it (vague, incomplete, sometimes outright wrong) and it immediately gains 3-4 upvotes in the space of seconds. sigh One can only hope that clean living wins out in the end.– T.J. CrowderCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:36
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3Perhaps it's worth mentioning that there's a possibility that your coworkers may fall foul of the serial upvoting rules that SO has in place. The exact algorithm behind it is not public, but you may be doing them a favour by stopping it from happening.– DavidGCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 10:07
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7I can’t believe some people find Stack Overflow reputation that important they feel the need to “cheat” in order to inflate it. Why? Do they get a pay rise if they have a higher S.O. rep?– Martin BeanCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:34
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1@BoltClock what happened to removing this user from the post? Is that actually possible / going to happen? .... and so it just happened...– Cayce KCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:50
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4@Cayce K: Just happened as you were typing your comment. SE employees need to sleep too you know ;)– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:51
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16@Panzercrisis: That's not the OP's user name - anon is simply the placeholder that's left after the question's anonymized.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:57
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5@T.J.Crowder I seem to believe that's rather just people who are just like "I don't know the answer to this." or maybe just "This is indeed a question." and then "This answer sounds like it might possibly be useful to someone, maybe." or maybe just "Oh, an answer, let's upvote it." as opposed to voting rings. I've spent a lot of time on this site (not as much as you, though...) and I see it happen all over the place, all the time (and I've certainly posted a few answers myself which got a few upvotes in the first minute or so, and I don't seem to remember joining a voting ring).– Bernhard BarkerCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 17:43
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1Oh @musefan, such a cynic! :)– DavidGCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 11:25
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3Related: the same situation from another viewpoint: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/138517/…– NanneCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 13:50
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1@jpmc26: And what evidence will there be? If they see USER A has upvoted USER B a lot, how will they know if it was done blindly or based on quality of answer? Will they really review all the posts that have been voted, what if they don't understand the subject area. I am sure it's more likely the right outcome will occur, but it cannot be guaranteed for sure– musefanCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 14:11
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1I'm disappointed that I don't have co-workers to engage in this kind of scam with. It had never occurred to me. It's almost worth getting a job just for this. Okay, no it isn't.– mattCommented Jul 24, 2015 at 0:47
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1@MartinBean stackoverflow.com/research/…– Brad WerthCommented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:53
6 Answers
Whether you are referring to
- a group of users you don't know, whom you have witnessed conspiring in public and/or suspect to be coworkers or otherwise related to one another based on their user profiles, or
- your own coworkers in that you're witnessing this behavior in your very own workplace,
this behavior is considered fraudulent and is entirely reportable. Simply flag any post belonging to one of the suspected users for ♦ moderator attention and explain the situation. We will investigate and take action if we do find evidence that the users have engaged in voting fraud.
In the particular case of #2, you don't have to worry about being found out, as your flags (including your name) can only be seen by moderators and Stack Exchange employees, and will never be revealed to anyone else.
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10But what if person-A is asking/answering legit questions/answers and also gaining votes from other users including from person-B who is helping person-A? Person-B have the rights to vote if the A's question/answer is legit. There is no evidence or anything. What would happen? Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 5:06
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9If the posts are legit (i.e. they're OK in quality, not spam, and not plagiarized from elsewhere) we'll leave them. If other unrelated users are voting on their posts, that's fine too. Voting only becomes a problem between a group of users if their votes are being concentrated on one another and not on other people's posts, intentionally or not. The action we take usually only entails invalidating those votes and sending a message to each user involved to let them know that voting should be based on content and not biased towards specific users.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 5:15
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6SO has system in place that detects such behavior. Coworker in my previous company used to do it for few days and when they got caught by SO, they lost earned reputation that way. It all came to light when they got caught and one of the coworker made it public. Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 10:24
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6@BoltClock Riddle me this. I and a bunch of my colleagues try to stay somewhat active on SO. We have each others profile links and often see what the other person is upto and upvote their questions/answers where we feel appropriate or publicly/privately ask them to edit their answers where we think they are incorrect. I think this should be ok.– Shamas SCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:37
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2@BoltClock I acknowledge that it's simply not possible for SO to automatically judge whether the votes were casted honestly or 'claw me claw thee'. And the needs of many outweigh the needs of few. But it should at least clearly stated so, don't you think?– Shamas SCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:42
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20@iosDev82: That's great! You're peer-reviewing each other's answers and encouraging one another to correct mistakes. I encourage you to do the same with others on the site. Many voting rings involve people blindly voting for one another thinking their coworkers are infallible.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:45
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2@iosDev82: As long as you make sure you're not voting on each other's answers at the expense of others (which is a little hard when you're educating and helping one another), you're good.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 15:09
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2@Mehrdad: The vast majority of these cases are blatant attempts at gaming the system. iosDev82's is quite frankly a special case and one I wasn't expecting to address here at all until they commented. If you come to SO with the mindset of helping people, you're probably not going to "conspire" or make an agreement to only ever upvote each other's posts and skew the system unfairly for everyone.– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 4:35
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1@BoltClock: I see. Just to give you another example, in a handful of instances in the past, I've upvoted my peers' questions just for the sake of either encouraging them to post more, or to give them enough rep for the commenting privilege, which they were finding quite stupid and which I agreed with. I would have not otherwise seen the questions myself, and even if I had, I would not have voted on them at all, since they were completely typical questions -- neither particularly good nor bad. Now did I "game" the system here? Yeah I think I did. Was it the wrong thing to do? I didn't think so. Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 4:45
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6"your flags (including your name) can only be seen by moderators and Stack Exchange employees" plot twist: OP works for Stack Exchange– corazzaCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 8:22
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3@iosDev82 I have had rep stripped from your exact situation. SO did not care that the q's & a's were legit. SO did not care that I had votes from many others. SO did not care that my colleagues voted on many others. SO just said that since 'Bob' had voted on some of my posts, that it was fraudulent. So BoltClock's comments may be his impression, but that is not how it works in reality. Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 8:23
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2@RichardLeMesurier Yeah pretty much same thing has happened here as well. And I don't mind. It is simply not possible for SO to judge whether upvotes were legit or result of 'ring of upvoters'. And the whole SO has to be bigger than the upvotes I get. :D– Shamas SCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 8:29
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4@Mehrdad this is wrong. You are voting for the person not the post whereas is should be the other way round. Why was your peer trying to post a comment? Was it really necessary to post that comment? The answer your question "What was he supposed to do?" is that they should go off and look for something else they can answer without commenting and earn reputation that way.– ChrisF ModCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 8:48
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2@Mehrdad OK - I'll admit that this is the problematic case. I don't know what the answer is though. Allowing unfettered commenting isn't going to happen without major changes to how we moderate comments for spam etc.– ChrisF ModCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 9:23
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2@gnat: You're joking, right? Tell him to find 25 posts to edit and wait for the rep for all of those to accumulate before being able to address his own problem? Even I couldn't find 25 posts worth editing in a reasonable amount of time, never mind having the patience to wait for all of them afterward before I can address my own problem... Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 16:13
Well, the fact that they shared what they are doing (on purpose or not) made them fall from the horse because, unfortunately, that behaviour happens all around:
- Users that know each other personally;
- Users that know each other from Stack Overflow; (as long as the question/answer isn't completely off - same for the above point)
- Users that don't like someone upvote the competition and downvote their targets;
- Users that answer and downvote all other answers on the post;
- etc., etc.;
That's a common practice. Not long ago someone I know was on Stack Overflow and I was behind him, we were both checking the answers to a question we had interest in, and when he saw one from Jon Skeet he said, "this guy is king!" and upvoted. There was an accepted answer that wasn't Skeet's, but Skeet's got his upvote just for being Skeet's.
Such behaviours are practically impossible to detect, but once detected, what you did is the right thing, because as a pattern behaviour, it can be identified and "taken care of".
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1The people getting outraged about this are guilty of exactly the same thing as the people doing it: taking a number in a database too seriously.– jwgCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 9:43
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5@jwg: Site rules are site rules. You break'm, you face the consequences. Simple as that. I'd love to see you tell a banker he's taking a number in a database too seriously.– CerbrusCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 9:49
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@jwg, it's a matter of making the site a better one. Rep points are indicators that should mean something. I partially agree with you as I see myself not caring for users getting rep irregularly. It's up to users to be biased by rep points in questions/answers, I chose not to. Furthermore, the rep points definition should inform that they really are indicators but can also be deceiving, as points may be obtained in several ways, including editing a post. As for Cerbrus' comment, that doesn't apply, you're talking apples and oranges– chiapaCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 9:57
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Regarding the Skeet-related behaviour, that's really quite dumb as Skeet is "king" largely through precisely such actions. I'd expect better from a programmer who ought to have just a modicum of logical common sense. But, I suppose, we cannot get away from the fact that some people are simply stupid... Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 11:29
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Exactly @LightnessRacesinOrbit, that's my point. In a perfect world, the voting would be perfect. And you put your finger exactly on the wound by saying "Skeet is "king" largely through precisely such actions". The majority of the rep points that very high rep users have comes from there: I see answers that are correct, well structured and correct with dozens of upvotes because of the author, you can find perfect alternatives on the same post, sometimes previous to theirs, much less upvoted. NOTE this fits Skeet and other very high rep users, nothing against Skeet at all– chiapaCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 11:43
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2With the whole 'high rep' users debate, a good example of that I have personally been involved in: A high rep user posts an answer quickly after the question is asked, they get upvotes almost instantly, I pointed out in comment the answer was wrong (did address the issue), high-rep users says "ah yes, my mistake" and deletes the answer. perfect example that people upvote based on rep, and don't stop to read or validate the actual content of the post– musefanCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 12:32
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1@musefan,it may be the upvote was based on clearly written easy to understand answer. (Regardless of the answers correctness). Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 14:37
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@IanRingrose: It's a nice excuse, but is that a valid reason to upvote? Should an incorrect answer ever be upvoted based just on how good it looks? What if it's not even on the same subject, but it looks the dogs? I am not sure that counts. and then also, why only high-rep users pull off good looking answers...– musefanCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 14:45
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@musefan, Cleanly not, but the person up-voting may not know it is incorrect. Having a lot of rep seem to mostly be related to how QUICKLY someone that write LOTS of CLEAR answers. (Skeet seems to get most of his rep from answers with only 1 or 2 up votes.) Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 14:49
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@IanRingrose: well then high-rep users need to start learning to prioritize accuracy over speed. Not to mention how many get around the issue by quickly posting one-liners and then editing them to actually make them good quality.. they still get the upvotes from the one-liners though before they have even made the edits. I think the fact is people feel more compelled to factor rep into their voting decisions. They see rep as an unquestionable reflection of a person's knowledge, they cannot comprehend that a high-rep user may actually post an incorrect answer so they don't bother to validate– musefanCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 15:01
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@IanRingrose: And lets be honest, if the person voting doesn't have enough knowledge to be able to work out if it's right or not then they shouldn't cast a vote anyway. But it's a cascading effect, one dimwit upvotes and then the rest upvote because "hey, it's already got an upvote, it must be right"– musefanCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 15:04
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Jon Skeet is always right. Even when he copies someone else's answer. :-) Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 17:11
This is fraud. Outright fraud. Their behavior is unacceptable and they should be severely reprimanded. Alert the local authorities and optionally Stack Overflow moderators and hopefully the appropriate action will be taken. What nerve.
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51
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2Call your local police detachment! There must be something they can do about voting fraud... on a question and answer site...– user4639281Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 23:30
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I'm 100% serial about this. It's dishonest and deceitful and for all we know they're probably commiting more heinous crimes as well. Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 23:31
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1Yeah, but... voting rules on this site are not within the jurisdiction of your "local authorities"– user4639281Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 23:36
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1Maybe you should edit your answer to correct that misconception.– user4639281Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 0:01
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8I'm upvoting this purely to game the system and "undo" the downvotes. This is gold. Someone sue me! Commented Jul 23, 2015 at 4:50
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6@Mehrdad I'm calling the local authorities to report you right now.– ajbCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 5:03
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55I'm disappointed to see that there isn't actually a Torches and Pitchforks badge.– Ken Y-NCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 6:19
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3@KenY-N: Feature request! Just gotta think of something to award it for.– CerbrusCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 7:59
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3
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2looking at +11/-11 vote split, I bet that if I vote this up to +1, someone else will come and vote it down back to 0. And if I vote down to -1, someone will vote it up back to 0. Now that's a voting fraud, I refuse to participate in this– gnatCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 13:35
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3
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7@Cerbrus that has to be some voting ring at work. I am calling local authorities to investigate and round up the usual suspects– gnatCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 14:01
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1
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2I voted up this. I know Jay Frizzle. He is one of my co-answerer. And I'm requesting others to share my comment and upvote this comment :P Arrest me I say. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 12:44
Voting based purely on somebody asking you to do so is in no doubt wrong, and if you spot it (or know of it from other sources) then you should act. @Boltclock provides an excellent answer on this already, in that you should flag one of the voted posts for moderator attention and explain the situation for them to review.
However, you should also be aware (IIRC) that raising invalid flags can result in a penalty to you (though I don't know what that is off the top of my head). So to this end you need to be sure that the behavior you are reporting actually does break the rules. For example:
Asking a friend or co-worker to 'review' your posts isn't a problem. As long as those people apply the same standard of reviewing as they would with any other post - by any other user - when they decide whether to place their vote or not.
Now although my opinion isn't written anywhere officially on SO that it's acceptable to do that, consider the fact that SO does promote sharing posts on social media sites. In reality, if I was to share one of my answers on Facebook for example, it is no different than sharing it with a co-worker. We are reliant on those viewing our posts to do the right thing, regardless of how they came to find the post.
Finally, I just want to stress that I am not in anyway condoning blind voted just because someone you know asked you to do so. But please take care to ensure you are certain that a user is being fraudulent, as it could result in the mods misjudging (as they are humans too) and users could end up losing a lot of rep that was validly earned, which isn't fair either.
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3The penalty for having more than 10% of your flags in the last week marked declined is an automatic warning; 25% causes a flag-ban, which I believe increases in duration every time you trigger it. Worst case, barring deliberate attempts to abuse flagging to cause trouble, the only penalty flagging idiotically will land you with is the inability to flag anything. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 1:51
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Or you can just create a new account when your old one gets question-banned. Use your old one to upvote the new one, post a few bogus answers that just copies the accepted answer, you're back in business in 10 minutes or less. And no, you can't ask a question about it, best to keep it a secret that only banned users know about. Commented Aug 10, 2015 at 14:43
There is a real issue with this, people in (or from) some part of the world consider that their co-workers, friends and families have a duty to promote what they do regardless of how good it is.
It is call being loyal and is considered a social duty.
(The same issue happens with references, with friends and families expected to provide good employment and landlord references regardless of the truth.)
So are we going to limit StackOverflow to the part of the world that put “3rd party rules” above personal relationships? Otherwise to we just give up on voting and rep being meaningful?
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3To put in blunt... those parts of the world (wherever they may be) are wrong. Being a good friend (or whatever) is about being there to guide them down the best path. Sometimes that means to say your idea is bad, and this is why.– musefanCommented Jul 23, 2015 at 16:29
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3To turn your questions around, are we supposed to give up on any site goals that conflict with someone's culture, somewhere? I feel like you're letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. Encouraging people to be fair and honest probably won't be an affront to people's values that drives them away from the site. And the question of if StackOverflow's reputation model works or not doesn't boil down to "do people have different cultures?". If you have specific data that StackOverflow "isn't working" and a specific fix in mind, make a post about that.– Dan GetzCommented Jul 24, 2015 at 0:20
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2If a culture's ideas on criticism are getting in the way of actually solving real technical problems robustly, that culture needs to very seriously consider modifying those ideas. Respect is great, but "works in the real world" is even better. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 1:49
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2@NathanTuggy I have seen it with my own eyes. Culture often can and does hinder a person achieving success. That's hard to imagine for some but it can be viciously true. If corruption is part of the culture, should we excuse it? I say no! Part of fighting corruption is defining it. This question is a perfect example of an attempt at defining corruption.– D_BesterCommented Jul 24, 2015 at 4:36
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1I might also mention that corruption ideas are not simply rules foisted on third world countries. The locals are sick of it too. I know because I live in such a place (not in the USA). So don't use culture as a reason to lower standards. Rather we should maintain our principles. The best way for a highly corrupt country to achieve success is to fight corruption.– D_BesterCommented Jul 24, 2015 at 4:52
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well said, Ian. I would say that if the post is wrong, the friend's duty is to downvote. But overall, I agree that a friend's duty / colleague's duty is to engage at the very least. SO does not allow colleagues to engage on each others' posts no matter how good the quality is. I believe that is wrong and hypocritical. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 12:43
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1Gaming the system and playing favorites knows no national or geographic boundaries. They are universal problems. Commented Jul 25, 2015 at 2:57
That's perfectly fine if the answer is right and is not of poor quality.
It's the same as if you would share your answers/questions on Facebook, Twitter or G+ for which there are explicit share buttons.
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37Sharing is fine. Asking for upvotes on every single answer / question you post, however, isn't.– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:33
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39"Hey buddy, look at this, what do you think?" is the same as "Please upvote this!"? I don't think so.– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:36
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38SO isn't Facebook. SO is a Q/A site with as main goal to provide quality questions / answers. Sharing with the sole intention of getting "likes" is no more than vote fraud.– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:37
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16The difference is that Facebook likes aren't supposed to indicate quality (in fact quite often they indicate the opposite, that what you see is base, lowest common denominator stuff), whereas SO votes are. That you get reputation as a result is secondary, the most important thing is that the higher quality questions are voted up.– biziclopCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:40
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6...and anyone who shares his/her own question with the sole intention of getting upvotes (as opposed to getting answers, which would be the whole point of asking questions) deserves neither.– biziclopCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:42
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26Frankly, it's disappointing that someone with 10k rep doesn't see the difference.– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:42
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15"Of course, that's the whole point of social media." I disagree with your answer, but that comment made me laugh. :-) Excellent commentary on social media. Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:45
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7
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55@DavidG People must have shared it with their coworkers to downvote it :D Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:48
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6Most users don't blindly upvote every single link they're fed. In fact, I've seen plenty of shared links backfire, when shared with reasonably experienced SO users.– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:51
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732 downvotes in just 28 mins... time is running behind the downvotes... seeing this first time in life... Commented Jul 22, 2015 at 9:59
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7The difference between social media followers and people who will upvote everything you share is that you don't usually have an agreement with your social media followers that they'll upvote everything you share or post regardless of its actual quality (unless your name is Justin Bieber maybe, and even then the "agreement" is mostly a one-sided affair).– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 10:35
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10It's in the title of the question: "Coworker asking another coworker to vote all his questions and answers to gain points."– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 13:34
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7And did you read the comments? How is it unclear that this question is about users playing the system? "Asking <...> vote all <...> to gain points"– CerbrusCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 13:47
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9>implying Facebook likes are any more material than Stack Overflow rep– BoltClock ModCommented Jul 22, 2015 at 14:47