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TL;DR Surely downvoting valid discussions is discouraging users from asking good questions?


I asked a question on the main site:

How can I import multiple items from a module and rename them in Python?

It was quickly down voted, so, wanting to improve it, I asked about it here, on Meta. I want to ask the best post I can and yet my valid Meta post was also heavily down voted:

Is there an issue with this question?

My experience is probably fairly unique - most people posting a bad question here wouldn't think to take it to Meta, and most people who know about Meta don't ask bad questions (look at the number of users here compared to the main site).

The downvotes on the main site were valid - a comment would have been useful (but I agree they shouldn't have to), but the question was bad.

I don't think downvoting a Meta post with a clear question, a desire to improve their main site post and reasonable grammar and presentation is productive to a site that wants high quality questions.

If the user is willing - outgoing enough, even - to post on Meta, asking for improvements, what will downvoting this post accomplish? I'm not saying don't downvote low quality and similar - that is 100% necessary, I'm trying to say that the user wants to ask a good question, following the rules, and are doing their best to do this. If you object to these sorts of questions on Meta, is Meta the palace for you? Should schools give detentions for asking a teacher how to improve their bad essay?

Perhaps this is just this site. But perhaps this site shouldn't be like this. Just because the number next to my name is low, doesn't mean I don't have something valid to ask. Perhaps I do.

I really want to be able to participate here, and I will continue to do my best. But scaring off the few new users who want to make their posts as good as possible...

It can't be the best thing can it?


Can we make this meta site work for mentoring? (Answer)

Can we make this meta site work for mentoring? (Comment)

Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? (Question)

Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late? (Answer)

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    We don't have a shortage of questions. We might have a shortage of good questions, so anything we can do to increase that number is welcome.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 14:55
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    So if I were to distill your question...were you concerned that someone received a downvote to their question and they're now afraid to participate?
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 15:00
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    "If the user is willing - outgoing enough, even - to post on Meta, asking for improvements, what will downvoting this post accomplish?" People have an insatiable urge to reinforce the fact that they can vote however they please, as well as the fact that on meta votes are the only action needed to convey a "yes" or "no" answer.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 15:15
  • @BoltClock I realise that people can chose what to vote for. That doesn't mean how they vote is right, and it doesn't mean nothing can be done...
    – Tim
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 15:16
  • @Tim: And they're basically saying "too bad." Such are people. They know what they're doing, but they do it anyway simply because they know they can.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 15:17
  • @ChrisF Yes. I really want to make my questions good, but it is... difficult. Harder than on Skeptics... IMO
    – Tim
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 15:17
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    I tweaked your title, but I could also suggest shortening your intro on this question to focus on your core point. I think there's a useful question here, asking whether we should be downvoting questions on Meta that want to know what's wrong with a particular SO question, but I think it's getting a little buried with some of the extra wording you have here.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 16:21
  • @BradLarson I've edited a little, and removed some extra that isn't really needed. Does it need more condensing?
    – Tim
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 16:23
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    @Tim - I'd maybe shorten or remove the "new users" bit at the beginning, and lead with your experience of asking a question on SO, seeing it be downvoted, then coming to Meta and having your question asking what was wrong with it also be downvoted. That's your starting point for this discussion, and gets right to the point. The new users commentary can come after that, if at all.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 16:30
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    All agreed! Today I asked a question in Meta Stackoverflow and that would be my last question here! You know why? Because my question has received lots of downvotes and I still don't know why. What's the use of a meta forum (or in general a forum) if the users are afraid to participate in it?! It's specially more frustrating when there are tones of downvotes without even a single comment explaining why! What's the use of these downvotes? Do they really improve anything in the questioner or they just piss him off?
    – hatef
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 17:01
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    @Hatef Maybe they downvoted for the same reason as the first comment? However, you have a good point. Downvotes are used to filter out low quality, but here they seem to be being used wrong. Don't feel you have to leave!
    – Tim
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 17:23
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    @Hatef Votes on feature requests are often used to voice disagreement with the proposed feature. Proposed features with lots of upvotes are a little more likely to be considered by the SE staff than feature requests with lots of downvotes.
    – apaul
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 17:32
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    Closely related: Can we talk about the voting culture here on Meta?
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 18:19
  • Actually your non-meta question seems ok. Not sure why it got downvoted.
    – user
    Commented Apr 29, 2015 at 21:23

1 Answer 1

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I'll admit that I occasionally downvote posts that ask for help with specific questions, not always, but occasionally.

What makes the difference between a downvote and an upvote on a meta question asking for help on a specific question:

Downvote:

Hey my post is getting downvoted! I have no idea how this site is supposed to work, didn't bother to read any of the documentation on how the site works, and ignored all the comments under my question explaining what I could do to fix it.

So I came to Meta and repeated all of the mistakes I made on the main site!

How can I improve my question without reading any of the site's documentation, related posts, or comments under my questions?

Upvote:

I'm new here and I just asked my first question. Unfortunately it has received a few downvotes, but no one has left a comment explaining what I can do to improve it.

I've read the help center, taken the tour, and looked through previous Meta questions on the topic, but I'm still at a loss. Can someone point me in the right direction?

It more or less boils down to, "Is this user making an honest effort to improve, or is this user continuing the same pattern here on Meta?"

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    And this is what I wish the rest of the site went by...
    – Tim
    Commented Apr 25, 2015 at 18:22
  • The thing is, that the upvote/downvote difference is often implicid/judgemental. Why would a new user post that he has read the help center if no question by another user ever mentions that they have read the help center. You can't know if someone read the help center. Often people are very non-constructive about that. "Read the help center" sounds like "You're an idiot, I won't even bother to give you feedback" if you already read it. Also people often phrase it more aggresively than "Read the help center". Commented Sep 26, 2015 at 6:59
  • Also, mentioning that you read it doesn't prevent people from telling you "read it again" or pointing you to meta questions that you also have read already. Commented Sep 26, 2015 at 7:07

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