47

My question:

How can new users better understand the correlation between SO guidelines and SO community imposed guidelines?

Reason for question:

  1. Being a new user.

  2. Negative experiences that are related to community imposed guidelines.

  3. To better understand the current mechanics and direction that SO is heading, so that I can determine if this community is right for me.

Discussion:

As a new user, I have received what I consider negative experiences.

Example: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/28772207/completely-disable-internet/28772368#28772368

The goal for my answer was simply to help a new user solve a problem. I felt this was achieved with my answer. Due to being a user with low reputation, I was not able to comment or flag as a duplicate question.

However, I was respectful, and I took the time to find that this question has already been asked and answered on SO, and I added a line of code that was not in the answer link to help make sure that the user understands the correct namespace that is required to call that line of code.

As a result, I received several down votes by the community, and I was given instructions for a process that is not available to me as a user yet. These instructions were imposed by a community member. I was given the instruction to flag the post as a duplicate which I can agree might be more appropriate. However, it is not even possible. As a result that user that has given me instructions that are not available to me for SO, whom received 2 up votes for it.

Another user responded in a comment to the OP to ask if they even used Google. The user stated the search query they used to find results. Some people may read that response as being derogatory. I can surely understand the frustration that exists with the regulars on SO regarding duplicate questions. However, we live in a new age where predictive analytics is more associated with search and retrieval from the internet. In short, that user may have different search results than each of us due to this. But yet, this community member gets an up vote for that comment which doesn't help the OP (IMO).

The overall result of the above (in my mind), a user asked a question, and I provided an answer. We both received a total of -9 votes. The users that responded to processes regarding personal web search results and community imposed guidelines received 3 up votes.

Conclusion:

I'm confused on if users should focus strictly on following the guidelines outlined by SO, or should they focus on guidelines that the community imposes through voting processes and comments (which may not even appear logical).

I understand the mechanics of giving users an ability to have some say or "increased privileges" once earned. I don't disagree with that, but it seems that many members are quick to down vote, and my concern is the limitations that this may be imposing on newer members and the direction SO is heading.

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  • 1
    possible duplicate of Thwart publishing duplicate and low quality questions
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 22:32
  • 2
    see also: Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 22:33
  • 1
    I'm not sure how relevant your main question is to what you're actually asking; though I understand how you might think it is. I'm also fairly certain you can flag as a duplicate at 15 rep. Have you explored the menu thoroughly?
    – Ben
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 22:39
  • 5
    I understand your duplicate finding zeal @gnat, but I don't understand how this question is a duplicate of that stated. Could you edit your comment to expound upon the reasons?
    – Ben
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 22:40
  • 1
    See also: Why do I need 50 reputation to comment? What can I do instead?
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 22:44
  • 4
    @JasonAusborn You need 3000 to vote to close as duplicate. If the question wasn't already closed, you could flag as a duplicate. Try it on some random question (just don't cast the flag :) ) Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 23:02
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    @BradleyDotNET, my 4 flag options are spam, offensive, low quality, and needs mod attention when checking a random question. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 23:09
  • 9
    @JasonAusborn oh, you actually do need 50: stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/flag-posts Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 23:11
  • 2
    @Ben Apparently flagging to close comes in at 50 rep, since it requires the commenting privilege (for reasons beyond me..., only the duplicate even posts a comment) Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 23:12
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    @BradleyDotNET - I think it's the need for a comment on the duplicate close vote that jams things up here. I agree, it does seem a little weird, particularly in a case like this.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 23:15
  • 1
    @Ben my main question is the intended question. I meant to make this clear, but maybe it was not. The reason, discussion, and conclusion are meant to support why this question came to be. Commented Feb 27, 2015 at 23:15
  • 1
    @JasonAusborn: Note that votes on comments are a bit different to votes on questions and answers. Votes on comments have no effect on reputation, and you can't down-vote a comment (although they can be flagged). Comment votes are merely a way for people to say "Me too!" or "Thankyou for saying that". Also, some people upvote a comment on an answer they've posted to simply indicate that they've read the comment, rather than posting a new comment (since adding a new comment can potentially escalate into a frivolous chain of comments that add little value).
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 12:47
  • 1
    I'm not sure this is/was the case, but where you say "Due to being a user with low reputation, I was not able to comment or flag as a duplicate question." you imply that it was (or you think it was) the best sollution to comment or flag. Then you go: but I cannot do this, so I did something that was not the best sollution. Again, this is not something specific to this question, but this comes along many times. To take it to extremes: if you see a sollution (e.g. "close") but you have not the rep., you should not default to something else like "I'll write 'please close this' as an answer".
    – Nanne
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 7:59
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    @Jason thank you, by the way, for trying to help and also trying to understand how we will let you help. Please keep coming back. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 14:56
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    I find it funny that OP was chastised for a link only answer when the link was to another SO answer. Surely we're not worried about link rot when SO controls the link.
    – crthompson
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 17:50

4 Answers 4

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I understand your confusion. Stack Exchange has a lot of conventions and processes that may not be immediately obvious to those new to the network. It's easy to encounter something nonintuitive that has evolved over time and that many people take for granted here.

Your answer was one such case. You found a potential solution to a question in another question on the site, so you linked to it. What you didn't know is that the usual procedure for this is to vote to close something as a duplicate of that target question.

People suggested you do so, but it sounds like you aren't quite at the reputation level where you can flag things as duplicates. Most of the people commenting haven't been at that reputation level for a while, so they forget that you don't have access to this. That's what spurred some of the confusion in the comments, and there may have been some irritation from people who thought you could have done something else but didn't.

Usually, when I see this, I try to help out by converting an answer like this into a comment and / or a duplication close vote so that I can point out what the proper action was. The real issue here is that you don't quite have the reputation to do the things people are suggesting, which should come after you leave one or two more helpful answers. Unfortunately, we have reputation limits like this due to abuse from spammers and trolls and that can cause understandable frustration from new users.

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  • 3
    +1 Especially for the last sentence. Genuine good comments from new users are unfortunately forbidden to prevent spammers. This is a problem of SO that constantly comes up in the LQ post queue. I often try to copy the answer to a comment and give credit to the answerer before explaining him the situation and voting to delete the answer. This is a bit of work though. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 14:24
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    The worst part is that by gathering negative votes, you get even farther away from being able to do the right thing. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 19:44
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    As someone who has only occasionally asked questions on SO over the years, I 2nd the idea that the site can become quite frustrating to first time or infrequent users if you don't understand the conventions. Also, there is a lot of negativity on the site in general. The comments feature itself lends itself to a level of self righteousness which really irritates me.
    – darlirium
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:06
36

To add to Brad Larson's excellent answer:

The downvotes on the question are easily explained. The post was not asking a specific question, and didn't show any research (or any other) effort. That's actually a "SE sanctioned" downvote reason

"This question does not show any research effort, it is unclear or not useful"

So for a question of that quality, -6 isn't very surprising. As far as the answer, some users (and I've done this in egregious cases) use downvotes to discourage "bad" behavior, like answering with a link to a duplicate question, or posting crap to win FGITW.

-3 seems a bit excessive, but it could just be that you ran into 3 users that thought it was bad enough to warrant the downvote. Also, your reaction ("But I couldn't do that!") wasn't the best, and so you could have received some (perhaps unwarranted) downvotes for that.

On that note, the lack of the ability to take a correct action does not justify taking an incorrect action. Doing so will get your posts downvoted and flagged in a hurry.

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  • 31
    Adding a +1 to emphasize that last paragraph; "mea culpa" offenses like "I would have commented but I can't so I'm adding as an answer" (to name one I often see) are more obnoxious, not less, as a general rule. Basically, awkward as it may feel, doing nothing is often the best course if you can't do the thing you'd prefer. SO has way a ton of users, so if you can't help someone in the approved fashion, there will usually be someone else who can. No need to bend the rules most of the time for that. Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 4:53
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    When not sure about the correct action, come consult the meta before you take an action.
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 19:56
10

Each Stack Exchange site is a community which deals with large numbers of users. None of them do much hand-holding.

That's especially true for Stack Overflow. There are far too many users to hold their hands while they learn how things work. One unfortunate, but necessary result of this is the following technique for learning how the community works:

  1. Try to do something, preferably something helpful, which accords with what you believe the site is about.
  2. You get downvoted, flagged or commented about in an aggressive manner, telling you that you were wrong about what the site is really about (and hopefully providing a link to [meta]).
  3. Repeat as necessary

And "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen", and good luck to you on some other site.

It's unfortunate, but necessary, and we've all had to deal with it - or else to find a different community.

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  • My goal for the question was to determine the correlation between SO guidelines and best practices that the community focuses on which may be a better descriptor. After members took the time to at least give advice and their opinions, I realized that the community may at least be following some form of structure that is intuitive. Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 6:48
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    I'm sure there's a word for this, but I don't know it. The community is not "following a structure". The community itself is a self-organizing activity. It's an aggregate construct created by us all doing what we feel like doing. We mostly feel like not being yelled at by other community members, so this gives the appearance of being a structured activity. It's not. Commented Feb 28, 2015 at 15:35
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    Maybe we could come up with guidelines how we should behave when we encounter a newbie. There is a lot of discussion about how hostile the environment is, but at least in this case a large part of the problem was miscommunication. Could it be prevented by preparing our experienced users for the encounter?
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:01
  • @Palec If you have any ideas, I'm sure we'd love to hear about it (in a separate post of course) Note that this is an oft-discussed topic on Meta. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:06
  • I admit I watch meta mainly from Hot Meta Posts box and a my favorite meta questions. University studies take lots of time. When I scanned the contents of new-users (both here on MSO and on MSE), I found almost exclusively questions focusing on their behavior or the overall hostile environment. There are a few exceptions, but that does not hint of the topic being oft-discussed. Am I searching in the wrong place, @BradleyDotNET?
    – Palec
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:52
  • @Palec Sorry, I read your suggestion backwards. Preparing the experienced users to deal with new users is not a direction that has been taken to my knowledge. The previous discussion has been how to prepare new users to deal with the experienced ones. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 21:18
-2

I think a fairly honest answer is this: SO is changing.

It used to be a relaxed, friendly "question => answer" community and I had a really great time participating to it.

Then SO grew so succesful it started to "segment" into a myriad of subtopics, each focused to a well defined niche.

SO also had to deal with the fact that lazy large companies decided to stop their fairly expensive support programs and started to just redirect thousands of customers to SO, seen as "unpaid nice guys who will take anyone and fix our product problems".

End result: over reaction.

These days I can barely create a new topic - that few years ago would have been golden - and just see it shot down. I posted a really detailed and not duplicated software architecture plan just to see it "-6" in half an hour with NO explanation whatsoever except a guy saying that my topic (took 1 hour to write it down) is not welcome as it might stir some supposed "wars" between factions believing their software solution is the only Holy Graal.

On another topic, I spent 30 minutes of my time not just to reply to a guy, but I actually went so far to create and post a video for him. Result? MINUS votes because, instead of focusing on the reply content or the video, people focused at nitpicking my English syntax instead. I wanted to be helpful explaining my mothertongue pronunciation yet nobody cared English is my 3rd language, therefore I am not going to spell like an Oxford graduate.

In my opinion, I can truly, truly relate with SO need to get to tighter moderation, censorship etc. etc. but this went too far, it is ruining the feeling of friendly community that made SO so great and unique.

The moderators in here should focus on the replies good intentions and inner content, instead of shooting down anything not 100% "canon" and perfect.

I feel truly saddened, because I could really help a lot of people in a lot of different fields (software, hardware, algorythms, web technologies, Unix administration and configuration, finance, astronomy, philosophy, electronics) but these days I feel being actively discouraged and downplayed whenever I try and help somebody.

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  • Yes, people should vote on the post. But presentation is the part one sees first, which is the reason it will inevitably have a huge influence on the reaction. And I cannot say whether your question, despite being presumably really well-researched and written, was right for SO, or whether whoever all voted on it mis-judged it seriously. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 11:34
  • 1
    Content is what's important. Solving somebody's issue might take 3 minutes writing in the way it used to be perfectly fine for years and years, of take 15 minutes by checking out all the "canons" and whatever. Since a TON of questions get barely replied to, raising the bar against the few who would be available to help, is going to backfire in the long run. Ah, I see people are NEG flagging this reply as well. Ok, my time giving to SO may as well end today. I'll go help people somewhere else. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 11:45
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    I can only say this from reading your post and comment here. But it appears that you have an attitude that might be exacerbating the situation. SO and the other SE sites have standards that you need to meet for a good reason- if the sites are to continue to be a quality resource, we need to enforce high standards. And yes, that can mean that a post that a really detailed software architecture plan is not a good fit. And especially a video. The answer is supposed to help future people too. What if that video goes away? What if the URL scheme for the video hosting site changes?
    – mason
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 15:31
  • The attitude came after getting frustrated. Said this, there's always that long time lingering matter about being minused without knowing why. If I hadn't a good soul telling me why in his opinion the post was not good, all I'd have seen were 9 minuses and no idea what I did wrong. Regarding the video, it's on Youtube, it Youtube goes away then the availability of my video is going to be the last SO issue. Last but not least, in a section dedicated to a foreign language pronunciation, I had to put a video because said section does not come with an audio player. Other sections get their tools. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 15:38
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    You've gotta have thicker skin. If you are getting downvoted and you don't know why, then ask. Politely. Raising a stink is just going to ostracize you further from the community. And it doesn't matter if it's on YouTube or Google or Apple or some other website you expect to remain around. Content should either be directly on SO, or sites we have agreements with, such as Imgur.
    – mason
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 15:48
  • If I want to post audio / video replies to those who ask how to pronounce my mothertongue words, which would be the proper website SO has agreements with? Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 16:38
  • @DarioFumagalli Interesting question. Once you reach 200 reputation (enough for the association bonus), I encourage you to ask this question on the meta site of the SE site related to your mother tongue. Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 17:11
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    Note that a software architecture plan doesn't sound like a good question (not having seen the post). I agree with the other users notes that if you are going to post a video, it needs to be supplementary at most (especially here). Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 19:50
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    SO is not a forum for discussion. There are not topics there are questions and there are answers. Sounds like you want a forum to discuss, this is strictly forbidden in the "help". So no wonder you get down voted to oblivion, that is what is supposed to happen when people do not follow the rules.
    – user177800
    Commented Mar 2, 2015 at 20:26

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