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Some people go a bit over the top downvoting. It isn't exactly welcoming to new users. My process is this:

Is it a good question? Upvote. If not:

  1. Spam? Flag. Otherwise:
  2. Very obviously bad? Are you sure? OK, GOTO 5. Otherwise:
  3. Looks hard to answer (code-wall, terrible formatting, etc.)? Leave a comment on how to improve.
    • Can I improve it myself?
      • Will it save it? Edit, otherwise GOTO 5.
    • No? You're not trying hard enough. Tried harder? Good. Fine, you can GOTO 5.
  4. Off topic? Close vote, comment.
  5. VLQ. Deserves downvote? Downvote.

Only after considering commenting (so OP can learn) and editing (to save a potentially good question) do I downvote. Why? Because downvotes discourage users. It basically says "Your question is bad (and you should feel bad) - nobody should bother reading it". It makes new users feel unwelcome, so they naturally (and partially correctly) assume that we want them to feel bad.

Poorly written question? Down vote and move on.

^ This is such disrespectful behavior. Some people forget that there's a human being on the other end of the Internet who may not be fluent in English. Or the programming language. Or they might not understand Stack Exchange. (All can be forgiven, and eventually corrected.)

I believe that others should do the same as me - try to help, not discourage. 99 out of 100 users have potential, it is up to us to make them feel like using it.

What do you think about this? Can something be done about excessive downvoting?

I should note that I don't think downvoting is evil or anything. Downvoting is essential to the functioning of the site, and there are plenty of posts that deserve downvoting. I am complaining about overuse, not normal use of downvoting. And I also think a complaint about underuse of downvoting is just as valid.

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  • 128
    My gut feeling is that 90% of bad questions are asked by people who could easily realize they're bad questions if they spent just enough to read over their question and check whether it makes sense to someone reading it without any extra context. For example, any question containing "I get error" without any description of what the error is - it really doesn't take a genius to realize that you need to explain what the error is. If you think about it that way, it's the OP who is being disrespectful by not caring about whether their question is answerable.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:01
  • 50
    Bear in mind that before anyone asks a question, they already go through a page that explains how the site works, with explanations of what makes a good question and links to more details. If they've chosen to ignore that and ask a good question, don't you think that's disrespectful to the people who they're asking to give them time?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:02
  • 34
    I disagree. I see plenty of terrible questions where nobody has bothered to vote. Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:05
  • 68
    "They're not being disrespectful by not reading thru help, faq, and top meta posts, they're being practical" They're asking people to spend time helping them, but they're not willing to spend any time making sure that they can be helped. That sounds disrespectful to me. If they're not willing to read anything that's written to make them write better questions, why should we believe they'll read comments and take action on them? Just how much effort do we have to put in before they put any in? Downvoting bad questions so that the site maintains good quality? That sounds practical.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:15
  • 24
    @bjb568 so, I used to be soft on users too, and I followed an algorithm much like yours. The problem is that it just doesn't scale. Giving tender love and care to every single question for every single user sucks up a lot of time and energy. It's just easier to go straight to downvoting and move on. Stack Overflow gets 8000 questions per day. Being soft just doesn't scale :P
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:16
  • 10
    None of what you say is a misuse or abuse of voting. You might not like it, but that doesn't make it wrong. Users have a vote and are free to use it. They seem to regulate its use pretty well in general.
    – Bart
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:19
  • 41
    "They have created a good question that can benefit the community." If it's a good question, it won't be downvoted. Do you have examples of genuinely good, helpful questions which are being downvoted?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:19
  • 4
    @bjb568 I've been a member of Stack Overflow for 3 years and 7 months. In that time, I've only asked 18 questions. I've spent plenty more time than 3 hours to read most (if not all) the rules on Stack Overflow, plus blog posts by Stack Exchange and Jeff Atwood. Only after all that research, only then, have I been posting more questions. If you post here, you better darn well make sure that you understand what's involved with it. If you don't, then you better learn fast.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:21
  • 32
    "They don't format their code. They don't describe their problem." Then they're not good questions which are helpful to the community then, are they? You need to decide: are you talking about good questions which are helpful to the community (they don't get downvoted) or bad questions (which aren't helpful, and would almost always be fixed if the OP had the courtesy to stop for 30 seconds and think what would make it a good question)?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:25
  • 40
    @bjb568 Absolutely not. Your posts being edited into shape is not a right you have. You are responsible for the content in your own posts. If it's not good and requires editing, a downvote is a possibility. That other users are so kind to go in and prevent that from happening is a gift from them to you. Not a right you as the OP have to prevent downvotes from happening.
    – Bart
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:27
  • 30
    @bjb568 "n00bs can't go reading every rule on SO before posting". Then they have no business posting anything to Stack Overflow. Users who can't be bothered to do any research and Rubber Duck Solve Their Own Problems have no business using the programming tool that is Stack Overflow. Also, don't underestimate the ability of mods to root out duplicate accounts trying to evade question bans :P
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:32
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    If that is their first thought or indicative of their maturity level ... goodbye.
    – Bart
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:35
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    @bjb568 regarding "simple comments", there is a reason why comments are optional. Never underestimate someone's willingness to be immature and petty. Besides, even "simple comments" take time and energy. Anything that requires turning thoughts into coherent writing takes time and energy. Again, it doesn't scale to many questions. This is why it takes so much effort to find the best questions on Stack Overflow when it's absolutely inundated with a flood of questions that most of the old-timers would rather not spend time and energy to read.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:42
  • 32
    @bjb568: Oh please, too high a quality standard? The problem is that people have quality standards that are too low. Both when asking (not thinking about the quality of their question) and when voting (people are too timid still voting). Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:56
  • 20
    "They have a good question in their mind. But they can't get it out to SO properly. They don't know how." - Then they should read how before asking the question. As I said before, there are plenty of resources available... just 10 minutes of reading would be enough, but most people who ask bad question can't be bothered, apparently.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:11

2 Answers 2

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The main problem I see here is that downvotes are taken so damn personal. A downvote does not mean "you are a bad person and you should feel bad, go die in a corner". But that's how they're often understood. Try to see SE as a collaboratively edited knowledge base. New entries are created on an as-needed basis by actual users having actual problems, and they're collectively solved and answered and preserved for posterity. Upvotes and downvotes are used as an indicator for how useful overall a certain "article" is in the grand scheme of things in the context of a knowledge base.

See it from the perspective of a future visitor who has a specific problem and is using the search feature to look for articles that may help them (a feature which is sorely underused by "newbs" by the way). What that user wants is the most useful article which is both not too specific to somebody else's code but fits their problem perfectly. They do not want to sift through a ton of vague single-sentence questions with code walls to figure out whether that particular article fits their problem or not. But that's what most downvoted questions are: they're either too specific or too vague or too long to comprehend or have some other criterium which makes them unsuitable to be a highly visible knowledge base article.

That's what votes are for, to unclog the system from the regular stream of low-quality input that makes it less usable as a global reference. They are not there to insult anyone. If your question got downvoted, you should try to reevaluate it from the POV described above and improve it yourself. Don't expect others to jump in and do it for you, that's simply unrealistic and impractical.

The problem is that

  1. new users who do not understand this perspective think SE is a "forum" for free speech
  2. downvotes are taken much more personal than they ought to be and as a "veto" against their "right to free speech" or whatever other negative feelings they may invoke

That's why upvotes create "reputation" which builds "trust" in you by the system. Reputation first and foremost means that you know how the system is supposed to work. That means you understand what the purpose of the system is and act accordingly to keep it working that way. That is by design. Users with a low reputation simply aren't trusted to take good care of this knowledge base, users with a high reputation are. It doesn't say anything about you as a person.

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    I agree. Downvotes are great things. Maybe the problem is actually the reverse - maybe we need to educate new users on what downvotes are, instead of convincing old users to helping more.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:48
  • 79
    For what it's worth, I think there is indeed a very primal, visceral, emotional reaction to being downvoted though. Being downvoted sucks. That's why I make sure that I cover my butt and make sure that I post really good questions.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:48
  • 8
    @bjb568 all that is in help centre. do you expect a link to a help centre on each downvoted question? Whats the point? If someone does not do their research then a downvote reflects their laziness
    – user2140173
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:49
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    @mehow I don't have a solution. I am just noticing a problem.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:49
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    well I don't think it's a "problem". I think youre just being a bit too emotional about downvotes. In the election times this was discussed on meta and trust me the downvoters are moderating, keeping the quality of site good, saving it from the help vampires etc. It's not a problem, it's a good thing
    – user2140173
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:50
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    @bjb568 sorry to have to repeat myself, but once again, there is a problem of scale. I suspect you are approaching this from the perspective of anecdote. How big is this "problem" that you notice? We have tools for you to investigate that and get actual stats and numbers if you want: Stack Exchange Data Explorer and Api V2.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:51
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    @mehow I am? You can downvote everything I have. No, I'm talking about new users.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:51
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    @Cupcake I don't know and I have no idea how to use those things.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:52
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    @bjb568: To me, the problem is people who come to the site and can't be bothered to think for one minute "If I was reading this question, would it make sense?" Simply avoiding downvoting those questions doesn't solve the problem, does it?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:12
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    @user That's the thing, it's not. It's not personal. It's not based on "like" or "dislike". It's more like an objective academic critique of a professional paper you wrote. As a peer-reviewed professional (or enthusiast) you need to be objectively open to objective critique of your work.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jun 12, 2015 at 9:46
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    You can claim all you want that downvotes should be perceived a certain way but the fact is they aren't and no amount of FAQs or meta answers to meta questions is going to change that. You can't boil the ocean. Expecting users to follow these guidelines in the face off all evidence to the contrary is just ignoring reality. Design for reality not for some imaginary perfect user
    – user128511
    Commented Jun 15, 2015 at 0:39
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    @gman You're saying that we can't expect people to understand what a downvote they received really means? Or that downvotes should mean something else? Well, the entire system is based on the premise of voting based on perceived quality/usefulness. And so far that's worked pretty well, SO's success speaks for itself I'd say. Some users are misunderstanding and/or misappropriating votes for other meanings; which sometimes doesn't matter and sometimes is bad. Are we on the same page with this? What would you suggest to be done?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jun 15, 2015 at 7:03
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    He's saying that, given the fact that people don't understand what a downvote really means, that yes, we can't expect people to understand what a downvote means. The system is working overall, but maybe if we found a way to clarify things, the system would work better. Maybe we wouldn't lose so many new people for instance. The fact that WE understand it, doesn't meant the system is perfect and needs no improvements. As for suggestions... I have to think about it Commented Jan 20, 2016 at 18:17
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    @Pacerier: the downvote button has a tooltip describing what it stands for. It most certainly does not say "This post sucks."
    – Jongware
    Commented Apr 17, 2016 at 0:32
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    @Typel That is a romantic idea which might work for communities of a few hundred users or so. But SO is way beyond the scale where everyone can be taken by the hand individually. Additionally there are tons of users who have zero interest in improving themselves and which only try to work around the system in whatever way they can. It would be an enormous waste of time trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Also, often a downvote is accompanied by a close vote, which does carry a detailed reason.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Mar 3, 2018 at 7:15
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Only after considering commenting (so OP can learn)

No. Someone has spend a good amount of time to put a help-centre together. 99% of any Stack Overflow newbie (not newbie in programming) needs-to-know and guides are well described there. If question is downvoted all it takes its going into the help center and reading on downvotes -> once you there, you will probably see "how do I ask a good question" and "what topics are welcome here".

Because downvotes discourage users. [...] It makes new users feel unwelcome, so they naturally (and partially correctly) assume that we want them to feel bad.

That is a completely wrong assumption.

Imagine you're British and going on a holiday to French Riviera for the first time. Say you're driving. As soon as you enter the French land you are expected to drive on the other side of the road. You are the one who has to adjust. It's not like everyone else will start driving on the left side of the road just because you're there. There are set of rules that you need to get familiar with before you actually place your foot in another country - even another community.

Only after considering commenting (so OP can learn)

It's a bit similar here. You don't want to crash or get a ticket, create chaos on the road and cause harm and danger. You're welcome to come but you need to be respectful of the current rules and laws. If you don't you probably end up in jail - so a negative score on your question should encourage you to fix and adjust and not get pissed off and whine and complain.

Hope you see my point.

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    I'm not a terrible person (or maybe I am), but I didn't bother reading the FAQ until long after my bad n00b question days. I learned by example, but many others don't have time for that.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:35
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    "You are the one who has to adjust." But there had better be a sign there saying something. No, by sign I don't mean chapter 37.a of the crap travel guide that nobody buys.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:38
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    new users are taken through the guide before asking. what else should we do? a YouTube tutorial on how to ask!? Come on this isn't kindergarten (at least not yet) so I am on the side who's voting against making this a TALK TO ME lol
    – user2140173
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:41
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    New users aren't taken thru the guide. They are pointed to it. By making it non-mandatory people skip it.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 7:45
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    @bjb568 People who would skip it would skip it even if it was mandatory. :)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:04
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    @bjb568 Even though, I think most users who produce questions which receive downvotes would not improve, no matter how many tours they're forced to sit through. Most of the time they can't even be bothered to read the duplicates which are offered while they type their post. :-/
    – deceze Mod
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:11
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    @bjb568: You may have asked your first question before it was mandatory (although something has been mandatory for a long time). I believe it is mandatory now, and you have to check a box at the bottom to say you've read through it before you can ask a question, IIRC. Apparently, people are happy to check that box without reading it, which strikes me as disrespectful and lazy. How do you propose forcing someone to actually take in the guidelines that are already presented very clearly and often ignored?
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:15
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    @JonSkeet Oh… I didn't know about that. Well, then ignore my entire argument. If they can't be bothered to read the thing in front of their face, they deserve downvotes.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:17
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    can you elaborate do you know 277686 users have improved? why does the 100 rep matter here? could be association bonus couldnt it?
    – user2140173
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:19
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    @bjb568 maybe you're right about the whole sign thing. I signed up for an account and asked my first question a long time ago, so I don't remember how any of that works or works now. Looking at the tour, you're right, it doesn't have enough warnings. How about suggesting that we add the help center rules to it? Along with the words "Ignore at Your Own Peril"? Something along those lines. I'm being serious too.
    – user456814
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:33
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    Yeah. I see a wall of text. Some tips. Etc. I need more "READ ME OR YOU WILL DIE!!!!!"s.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 8:36
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    Good programmers read documentation. A good programmer will read SO's documentation, either before posting at all, or in the worst case when they post a bad question and start getting downvotes. They won't "die", because that single bad question will teach them the lesson they needed to learn. Bad programmers won't read the documentation without having it shoved in their face, sure, but we don't want them here anyway.
    – Wooble
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 11:48
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    Well, you can't expect everyone joining to be "good programmer" - they're only here to learn.
    – bjb568
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 16:44
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    This is a site for professional and enthusiast programmers. A person who doesn't read docs doesn't want to learn to be a good programmer, they just want someone to do their work for them.
    – Wooble
    Commented May 3, 2014 at 4:13
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    Maybe when the OP visits a question with negative score, the site should add a banner with links to the guidelines and meta posts discussing how to improve bad questions?
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented May 4, 2014 at 1:42

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