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Aug 9 at 8:18 comment added PhobosFerro The user already had a "chance" to improve the post, when the system told them to add more information. What makes you think they care enough to come back and improve it after removing all the nonsense for them?
Aug 9 at 8:15 comment added PhobosFerro "Whether user has circumvented some quality filter or not is also not relevant" But it is. Rules are set in place for a reason, adding nonsense to circumvent said rules is abusing the system. It should be flagged and deleted as such.
Aug 9 at 7:48 comment added l4mpi @Gimby as you say, most of those questions should not be edited. So I disagree that we should not hinder "proven editors" - stopping them from creating noise with trash questions seems like a good thing so we should keep it in place.
Aug 8 at 14:25 comment added Gimby I am more concerned with what can be done than with what "should" happen. What should happen is never going to happen. Yes Tu... "less than ideal" questions will be posted by bypassing the hilariously easy to bypass filters. That should not hinder proven editors. Whether you really want to edit such questions... well that is a bit of a gray area. Some maybe yes, most probably no.
Aug 8 at 12:45 comment added DavidG Yeah, you can polish a turd right? One might argue it's an improvement, but it's still, fundamentally, a turd.
Aug 8 at 10:06 comment added l4mpi @DalijaPrasnikar and again, I'm saying you're asking for an exception to the rules and the process to be granted to mods, and those should only be granted in exceptional circumstances when it's clear that it adds enough value to justify the exception - so "how much" is exactly the question here. You did not give any concrete examples except for a few vague statements about "giving users a chance" and similar cheap phrases that feel as misguided as the "#soreadytohelp" hashtag to me.
Aug 8 at 9:56 comment added Dalija Prasnikar Mod @l4mpi Once the post gets posted and it is not spam or blatantly off topic, it can be improved. How much, that is completely different question. Whether user has circumvented some quality filter or not is also not relevant. Again, I am not saying we should keep those post, I am saying we should be able to give those users a chance to improve. That is what process is designed for. And it is also designed that other users and moderators can edit such posts and remove things that don't belong there, regardless of whether they think post can be salvaged or not.
Aug 8 at 9:47 comment added l4mpi @DalijaPrasnikar again, I don't agree that "literally anything can be improved" by editing. And if you're arguing based on the process design, well, it's designed to block those Qs in the first place, which was circumvented by the asker. So if you want to "honor the process", then please delete posts which only exist due to abuse of said process! Re forgetting about quality: that's the "optimize for pearls" part, what you're doing here is trying to optimize for sand - or are you arguing that you could save lots of "pearls" this way? If so please provide concrete example Qs to prove that.
Aug 8 at 8:36 comment added Dalija Prasnikar Mod @l4mpi Literally anything can be improved, that does not automatically mean that each such post should be reopened and not even that they don't deserve to be deleted eventually. The process is designed that it allows improvement (editing, reopen queue, reverting votes when edited) and we should honor that process. That has nothing to do with welcoming trash or forgetting about the quality. When did I ever say something like that?
Aug 8 at 7:50 comment added l4mpi @DalijaPrasnikar "each post can be improved" - disagree, unless you think of permanent deletion as an improvement. Lots and lots of questions should not be posted and don't add anything of value, e.g. most new java NPE questions. For a long time, the motto was "optimize for pearls, not sand", until SE decided to throw the quality focus out of the window and "welcome" every trash Q to bump growth for their acquisition. But just because SE and users who drank the koolaid repeat the welcoming and improving mantra ad infinitum doesn't mean it's universally agreed or noncontroversial.
Aug 7 at 16:48 comment added Jon Clements As an ex-mod I was always more on the "preservative side" so I agree with @DalijaPrasnikar here - if there's the slightest of chances that something's worth saving do what you can and the system shouldn't limit you in doing so - especially if a mod. (In my term it allowed mods to do weird stuff like undeleting answers on a deleted question etc... so while filters and whatnot could be improved and still apply - in some cases they shouldn't :p).
Aug 7 at 16:16 comment added Dalija Prasnikar Mod You misunderstood. I meant we should focus on solving problems in workflow that allow posts to be improved as system is designed on that premise. Each post can be improved. We keep repeating that here to every single person that comes here and asks why they cannot ask any more questions. So we should be able to do what is necessary to improve post, regardless whether that alone will be enough for reopening the question or not.
Aug 7 at 13:45 comment added l4mpi and @DalijaPrasnikar regarding "we should focus on solving problems" - no, we should focus on creating a high-quality knowledge repository. I do not care in the slightest if we solve randomUser345875's problem or not, I care about quality. And re not knowing if they will be a good or bad contributor - well we have exactly one data point at that time and it points to the user being willing to ignore the site rules, vandalize their own post, and post an at-most borderline question (because as I said, it should always be trivial to add a bit more textual info to circumvent the filter).
Aug 7 at 13:41 comment added l4mpi @DalijaPrasnikar I expect that people who abuse the filter will be reprimanded and reoffenders suspended by mods for trying to circumvent the system. If you say the filter is not fit for purpose, then maybe it should be disabled entirely. But anyways, this should be discussed with multiple concrete examples because I seriously doubt this is a big enough problem to call for an exception to the rules, no matter if that exception is for mods only or based on other criteria.
Aug 7 at 13:11 comment added Dalija Prasnikar Mod Also there has been plenty of issues with quality filters where users couldn't post good questions. We should focus on solving problems rather than brushing everything off with "we don't need such users here". We want users who can contribute positively. We don't know whether someone who had a bad start will be a good or bad contributor in the future.
Aug 7 at 13:11 comment added Alois Christen @l4mpi I totally agree about user adding random nonsense, but this question is about mods editing posts. If the post is unsalvageable, the correct action is to delete it. If it's salvageable, I don't see how the filter helps by preventing an edit from a mod or a user with enough reputation. Either the filter is good enough to not be a nuisance, or there is a built-in way of bypassing it. But a basic filter preventing you from improving a post is a nuisance.
Aug 7 at 13:08 comment added Dalija Prasnikar Mod @l4mpi The quality filter right now allows your to literally enter "ajdbgjdgbfjsfg" to satisfy it. Do you think that we can reasonably expect quality filter that will be able to actually understand the problem and see whether what is being written is good enough to be posted. Removing quality filter for some range of users should be simple enough. I even made emphasis on moderators, to avoid discussing about various what-if scenarios, although I would be more than fine if other users could be able to bypass filters based on some other criteria: reputation, number of edits, or something else.
Aug 7 at 12:34 comment added l4mpi @AloisChristen as I said above - the filter does not need to be perfect, I don't care if it filters some borderline things, and it should usually be trivial for the asker to supply enough useful text to not trip it. I would also say that askers who instead choose to add random nonsense to the post are probably not the kind of users we want on this site.
Aug 7 at 12:30 comment added l4mpi @DalijaPrasnikar How to adapt the filter should be a separate discussion. I personally think it's great that we have a small barrier to asking questions here - for the asker, it should always be simple to add a bit of useful text, e.g. for the editor example they could describe which settings they already tried, which platform/version/plugins they're using, etc. Of course this is not something you can add as a mod, but that's no reason to accomodate such a question in a form that would trip the filter.
Aug 7 at 12:22 comment added Dalija Prasnikar Mod How would you adapt the filter? It is about moderators ability to edit the post regardless of what needs to be edited out. I mentioned the particular scenario because as a moderator this is the most common scenario I am encountering. If I merely said that moderators need to be able to edit without the filter, then people would be asking for example.
Aug 7 at 12:21 comment added Alois Christen "For cases where you think the filter hit a false positive where the question is actually decent after removing the nonsense, this should be addressed by adapting the filter and not by allowing you to circumvent it." This assume there is a state where the filter won't ever get false positive AND that this state is reachable by small tweaks AND that we can reach it somewhat fast (a few years). This is a really strong assumption, I really prefer to have a built-in way for a human to say "This is ok, no need to filter it"
Aug 7 at 12:06 history answered l4mpi CC BY-SA 4.0