Timeline for Please don't call ruby "RB" in the developer survey
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
23 events
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Sep 29 at 3:33 | comment | added | kjhughes | @RyanM: Tried and failed for XML itself in 2021. XSLT would likely have done no better given the XML-yuck sentiment that's unfortunately popular with so many devs who misunderstand the document processing space. I do agree, however, that this is worthy of a being a question of its own, perhaps combined with XML too. | |
Sep 29 at 0:42 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | Frankly, this thread (question) is asking not to call Ruby "RB"; this answer is unrelated to that topic (and is thus unlikely to result in the change you desire). Appropriate places to raise that would be either the question asking to review the technology choices (before May 3, 2024), on the survey announcement (while the survey was open), or as a new question asking for it to be added to next year's survey (after the survey closed). | |
Sep 28 at 11:26 | comment | added | Michael Kay | @DavidConrad But we're way off topic here. The thread is asking why XSLT isn't included in the survey, and that's surely shouldn't be because someone thinks that there are some people who don't like it? | |
Sep 28 at 11:22 | comment | added | Michael Kay | @DavidConrad That's a legitimate criticism. There are ways of writing your code to reduce the problem, especially with newer versions of the language, but if a large chunk of legacy unstructured code is dumped on you to debug, it can certainly be hard to find your way around it. Mind you, I've experienced that with other languages too... | |
Aug 5 at 15:37 | comment | added | David Conrad | @MichaelKay That's perfectly fair. The problem is, if one is given a significant codebase to maintain, divided across numerous included files (as happened to me about a decade ago), processing large, complex documents, it can be difficult to find what will be invoked. The only way I could find was reading all the code from beginning to end, soup to nuts. | |
Aug 2 at 23:20 | comment | added | Michael Kay | It has to be said that XSLT is a language that only works if you adjust your brain to think about the problem the right way. That's why people who have grokked it love it, and those who haven't hate it. | |
Aug 2 at 23:17 | comment | added | Michael Kay | @DavidConrad XSLT is primarily a rule-based language in the tradition of SNOBOL and awk. The fact that you can't tell which rules will be fired in which order is the whole point; it's all driven by the data. That's what makes such languages well suited to handling input that can be highly variable. | |
Aug 2 at 15:11 | comment | added | Rainb | well, that is just Java :) | |
Aug 1 at 17:09 | history | edited | Heretic Monkey | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
name of the site is two words
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Aug 1 at 9:37 | comment | added | simonalexander2005 | If you hover over items in the list, you can see the full description | |
Aug 1 at 6:26 | comment | added | fdreger |
@DavidConrad apply-templates is "as close as it gets to a language having a COME FROM statement? I guess you have never seen Scala's implicits? No GIVE UP , though.
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Jul 31 at 23:35 | comment | added | kjhughes |
@DavidConrad XSLT being functional doesn't save your joke either. You're not appreciating that a key XSLT characterization is that it's based on a powerful pattern-matching paradigm. (Another is that its raison d'etre is the transformation of XML documents.) Templates declaratively (non-procedurally) define how an input document should be transformed to an output document. apply-templates is merely a means of recursively applying the templates to a specified part of the output document. Templates represent knowledge; apply-templates brings the knowledge to bear where needed.
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Jul 31 at 22:48 | comment | added | David Conrad |
@kjhughes non-procedural is irrelevant, it's a functional programming language but it can be very hard to tell what will be invoked by apply-templates in a codebase of any size and more than a few developers. I don't know any other functional language that has such a... "feature."
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Jul 31 at 19:25 | comment | added | kjhughes | @DavidConrad XSLT being non-procedural means your control-flow-based joke misses the mark. Devs lacking experience (or even curiosity) about other programming paradigms often never get over their initial ick reactions. That's unfortunate because the solutions unconventional languages offer to solving certain classes of problems are often impressively elegant and usefully pragmatic. | |
Jul 31 at 17:42 | comment | added | David Conrad |
It's so unfair, especially considering that with apply-templates XSLT comes as close as any modern programming language to having a COME FROM statement.
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Jul 31 at 11:41 | comment | added | Michael Kay | It's also true that many of the people who make effective use of XSLT don't think of themselves as programmers either, but that doesn't alter the fact that it's a programming language. | |
Jul 31 at 8:34 | comment | added | OrangeDog | @KarlKnechtel the audience they care about are not programmers either | |
Jul 31 at 7:44 | comment | added | Gimby | I hear you. It's just that whatever involved XSLT was usually the worst time of my life so I'm not very willing to fight for it :) | |
Jul 31 at 4:03 | comment | added | Nikolas | We should give XSLT more credit and fight for its visibility. | |
Jul 30 at 21:44 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | If they're marketers then they should especially understand that the audience that wants to know about Ruby isn't going to call it "rb" or recognize it as such, either. The only context in which "rb" implies anything to do with Ruby, IMO, is literally the filename extension for source code files. | |
Jul 30 at 21:09 | comment | added | OrangeDog | Because the people who put the survey together are marketeers, not programmers. | |
Jul 30 at 19:15 | comment | added | kjhughes | Agreed. Omitting XSLT is as bad as omitting XML from the "Programming, scripting, and markup languages" category. (But this probably deserves a question of its own rather than an answer here.) | |
Jul 30 at 18:57 | history | answered | Michael Kay | CC BY-SA 4.0 |