Timeline for Request to reopen question which got closed and deleted by a moderator
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
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Jun 12 at 13:42 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KarlKnechtel Also (last comment), when I first responded here, I didn't realize the question at hand here was as old as it was. I wrote the answer initially thinking it was freshly posted and freshly deleted. So the deletion is probably OK given the time it's been up. I still find the trend I'm discussing concerning, and stretching site guidelines. For the record, I close and DV a huge number of posts, but only ones that are unanswerable, not ones that just happen to be fairly specific and likely unpopular in sideline tags I frequent. As I wrote in my answer, this is unclear enough to close. | |
Jun 12 at 13:35 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KarlKnechtel (4) Finally, I'm asking for someone to show me the help center guide that says "if a question is only useful to you, don't bother posting it". Or any similar language/sentiment to even a small extent, and I'll stand corrected. (Yes, the MRE is important for genericizing it, but subtle nuances can make that a bit tricky in cases like the regex case here--oversimplification is a risk, so I don't think that applies here). Thanks for the conversation, I appreciate it, and I apologize for calling you out in this thread. I think post-edit a couple days ago, my answer is less targeted. | |
Jun 12 at 13:33 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KarlKnechtel (3) I don't think views or "only matters to OP" are always the best metrics for deletion. How do you know it's only helped OP? Like I said, as an avid searcher on the site, I've had my butt saved many times by questions that are 6 years old and have on the order of 40 views. Although this question is probably not going to be that useful to FVs, many others certainly are. It's hard to know what'll be useful to someone. As long as the question is otherwise on topic, I think it should be left up, and comments seem like the best way to clarify questions that have an attempt. | |
Jun 12 at 13:28 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KarlKnechtel (2) I shouldn't have tried to defend this question, it's fine to close because it's unclear. Regex is just an impossible tag to discuss or defend. I mostly saw it as an opportunity to fight against the patterns I'm seeing camp #1 style curation, and was upset by what I feel were recent DV/closures on questions I'd answered for the same reasons--sure, not 100% the most canonical question, but perfectly answerable and no clear dupe. But unfortunately I lumped Dharmin's curation which is probably OK with the "close everything against a wiki" curation which I still think is harmful. | |
Jun 12 at 13:28 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | We do know what parts of the pattern were important to characterizing the problem, because OP described the parts I removed as working correctly. | |
Jun 12 at 13:26 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KarlKnechtel Thanks for clarifying. A few points: (1) I understand you think you were preserving the author's intent, but we don't know which parts of that pattern were important, really. The answer used that exact input and was accepted, so "generifying" the input pattern invalidates that accepted answer, and it doesn't make the question more useful to future visitors, either. Input is super important in regex--let the author minimize it themselves. If they can't, then we can close it rather than make a guess that may well be wrong. | |
Jun 12 at 13:24 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | "The edit basically removed the failing input entirely CLOB_ABCD_6KW_SYSTEM_609-784_IWHT91831863_197_ACB_01_2019-05-02T07.03.27" - Yes; and I replaced it with a simpler input that fails in the same way, for the same reason when tested with a corresponding simpler regex (also provided) that has the same problem. | |
Jun 12 at 13:21 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | In my edit, I was careful to ensure that the description of the code behaviour - both in terms of the names of the capturing groups, and the text they capture - correspond to the changed input. That is how a MRE works. It is not required to be an accurate reflection of the actual code that originally motivated OP to ask. It is required to reliably and accurately demonstrate the problem, as simply and directly as possible. | |
Jun 12 at 13:18 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | " changing the input CLog_DMT_HPCC2_IWHT91731695_242_AFT1_2019-05-02T07.51.43 to I123_456_ABC_01_test. How is that allowed?" because the exact content of the input does not change what the question is. Questions seeking debugging advice are required to have a proper MRE, and the detailed contents of the string just make the underlying question harder to understand. (Similarly, when describing the behaviour of the code, it's important to use the actual names of the capturing groups.) It doesn't change the author's intent at all, and I frankly can't understand why you'd think it does. | |
Jun 12 at 13:15 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | In short: if your question is too specific to your needs because you don't actually need a question answered, it will be closed and deleted. If it's too specific because you have more than one need, or because you focus attention on irrelevant things, or fail to include relevant things, it will be closed and you have 9 days to fix it. | |
Jun 12 at 13:01 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | Even the most unremarkable dupes get tens of views. (I don't think my filter for "self-dupes" - where OP re-asks the same question - worked properly.) | |
Jun 12 at 13:01 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | To be clear: I don't think every question needs to be at the level of a FAQ. But they do need to be at a level where they could a) be relevant to someone else besides the OP and b) presented in a way that such a "someone else" could plausibly find it or at least be easily directed to it by a regular. But more importantly, they need to be properly focused, to a very high standard - because even relatively uninteresting questions are read far more often than they are written or edited. | |
Jun 10 at 23:41 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 20:54 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 20:47 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 20:38 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KevinB I adjusted the question a bit and tried to tone it down emotionally, but I think the camps are useful to show the broad philosophical approaches to curation that are at battle here. I've also tried to clarify that it's a thought model for the purposes of discussion, not a perfect snapshot of reality. Maybe it's no better than before, but I'm still open to ideas. | |
Jun 10 at 20:35 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 20:26 | comment | added | Kevin B | I don't know, exactly, that's the problem. Theres clearly 3 entirely different opinions just within this comment thread that all lump into group 1. does that mean you need camps 1 through 5? 8? 10? just present your opinion instead. | |
Jun 10 at 20:20 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KevinB I appreciate the feedback--how can I improve these characterizations? I want to present a non-strawman version of #1, then show that this ultra-aggressive interpretation of curation isn't in line with our guidelines. The actions I see taken on this regex tag feel like a separate camp, and I do think the camps very much exist, even if I've (necessarily) simplified a bit. It's not the only three philosophies on curation, just one way of looking at it that I think is pertinent to the thread at hand. I did remove Dharman's link from #1 because he said he wasn't in this camp. | |
Jun 10 at 20:16 | comment | added | Kevin B | Put another way, i feel you're dumping a bunch of people into camp #1 who don't agree with most of what you've outlined in group #1 but also don't agree with your stance here as someone from group #2, for the purpose of "discrediting them". | |
Jun 10 at 20:12 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 19:58 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
remove link to Dharmin's post, which apparently isn't camp #1 according to him
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Jun 10 at 19:51 | comment | added | ggorlen |
@Dharman My mistake--VLAZ made the "the question got 70 views over a period of 5 years. That has not been useful." argument, not you. Karl's edit changed the input and added presumptions about what parts of the regex worked and which didn't, which is critical to any regex question. The edit basically removed the failing input entirely CLOB_ABCD_6KW_SYSTEM_609-784_IWHT91831863_197_ACB_01_2019-05-02T07.03.27 . The difference between that and the original input that OP claims works as expected is the crux of the question.
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Jun 10 at 19:51 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | Sorry, but I can't see how Karl's edit changed the intent. I think the question still asks the same thing. | |
Jun 10 at 19:50 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | I did not delete the question simply based on views and title. I deleted it because I believed it to be unclear and unsalvagable. | |
Jun 10 at 19:50 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman Karl's edit totally changed the author's intent and is a non-starter, clearly against the guidelines. It also invalidated the accepted answer. The reclosure against a super-broad FAQ/wiki is another symptom, but it's the same problem (as deletion) of certain users being allergic to any question that's not framed as an FAQ/wiki/canonical. | |
Jun 10 at 19:48 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | The topic of this meta post was me closing and deleting a question which I believed to be unclear. The counterargument was that the OP was helped by the answerer so the question must have been clear enough. The question was reopened and then reclosed. I still argue that the way it was written before was unclear. After Karl's edit, it became significantly better, but it's still a duplicate. So the second half of the conundrum still exists: is this question useful enough to keep around as a signpost. | |
Jun 10 at 19:46 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman You deleted a question simply because you decided it wasn't useful to the community, based on views and a bad title. How do you know for sure that that question hasn't helped someone get unblocked? Anyway, my answer isn't exactly about this one question, it's about larger trends I've seen and an aggressive curation philosophy that has no grounds in the guideliens. | |
Jun 10 at 19:45 | comment | added | ggorlen | @KevinB Like I said in the post and repeated earlier in the comments, it's a simplification for sake of argument. It's a normal way to make a point. There's always loss of nuance when you create a model of something. | |
Jun 10 at 19:45 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | My actions??? Sorry if my actions gave you this impression. I don't advise deleting or closing questions simply because they are unpopular. We don't have a close reason for being too specific either (although it used to exist at the beginning of this site). | |
Jun 10 at 19:44 | comment | added | Kevin B | There's a whole lot of nuance beign completely left out between #1 and #2. I can care less about canonicalization, and certainly support questions primarily aimed at helping a single user, as your group 2 suggests. However, posts must have some use to future visitors if they are to remain undeleted on the site. regex questions statistically never do. | |
Jun 10 at 19:43 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman That's what your actions say, I'm simply clarifying the concept of "camp #1" for the sake of argument. It's the "blast anything that isn't canonical" camp and it very much exists. Check the many meta discussions about overaggressive closures in the Regex tags (Python too, but I haven't found a meta post about the phenomenon yet--will look). If you can improve my characterization or point out how it differs from the actions of certain overaggressive power users, please do. | |
Jun 10 at 19:42 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | Nowhere does it say that. And I think you misunderstood something because neither I nor Karl claimed anything like that. | |
Jun 10 at 19:41 | comment | added | ggorlen | @AbdulAzizBarkat "A question needs to be useful to the community. That is its main goal. A question cannot just be a statement about the author trying to do something or needing help with something". There's no evidence for that. It's not what I assume users are doing, it's what they are doing. See for example What's up with the [regex] tag? It seems many on-topic [regex] tag were removed? to get an idea of the trend in this tag, if you're not aware of it. | |
Jun 10 at 19:40 | comment | added | Abdul Aziz Barkat | @ggorlen "if your question is not popular enough, too specific to your own problem, or not destined to become canonical, it will be closed and deleted" no one here but you had said that. Where are you getting that from? Don't try to extrapolate normal curation activities into whatever you assume users are doing. | |
Jun 10 at 19:33 | comment | added | ggorlen |
BTW, This edit seems really invasive and conflicts with the author's intent, changing the input CLog_DMT_HPCC2_IWHT91731695_242_AFT1_2019-05-02T07.51.43 to I123_456_ABC_01_test . How is that allowed?
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Jun 10 at 19:32 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman Where do the site guidelines say anything to the effect of "if your question is not popular enough, too specific to your own problem, or not destined to become canonical, it will be closed and deleted"? | |
Jun 10 at 19:31 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | I didn't see your request for guidelines so I don't know what you wish to see. Maybe I missed it somewhere. I also don't think I follow what site guidelines you think we have overstepped. | |
Jun 10 at 19:28 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman Thanks for your input and feel free to clean up the thread. I think both your actions on the regex question here and Karl's on many Python posts over the years are out of line with the site guidelines. But I guess I'm outgunned. Still, nobody has shown me the guideline I requested--happy to change my view if I'm presented with evidence. | |
Jun 10 at 19:27 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | I don't think anyone abused their dupe hammer/vote here or on the other question mentioned. Duplicate closure is good, not only for the OP, but for the site as a whole. It's answering the question without reposting the same solution over and over again. These last comments are off-topic, so I will remove them. If you want to discuss the duplicate closure of the other question, please post a new meta question. | |
Jun 10 at 17:58 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 17:54 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 17:48 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 17:41 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman Again, I already dealt with "We don't need to keep every question around" in my answer. That's camp #3 and I'm clearly against that. That's a strawman argument because it's not the one I'm making. I'm in favor of keeping sufficiently good questions around, regardless of how popular they are. There are thousands of questions that are much less clear than the one being discussed here that need to be cleaned up. Those questions are truly unanswerable, garbage questions that camp #3 wants to keep. Different category from those that are reasonable but don't happen to be popular (camp #2). | |
Jun 10 at 17:36 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 17:31 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | A question doesn't need to be canonical to be useful to someone else. It might be that a question will never help anyone else either. But I do advocate for the deletion of questions that are unclear or poor duplicates which will only ever waste time of someone else. We don't need to keep every question around. | |
Jun 10 at 17:28 | comment | added | ggorlen | Actually, this meta thread is a perfect example of some of my arguments. It's a specific question about a particular regex deletion that has general relevance, just like a lot of specific technical questions on SO that have general relevance. OP solves their particular problem, and helps a lot of other future visitors in the process. But the process has to happen naturally--OP in the meta thread didn't set out to create a wiki/FAQ, nor should we be dupe hammering it (we're not, but the point is that the same pattern applies to the regular site as well). It's a good, answerable question. | |
Jun 10 at 17:23 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman Sure, it's a simplification, but I think it's a useful one for the discussion here. But your answer and action taken here seems very camp #1 to me. "A question needs to be useful to the community. That is its main goal. A question cannot just be a statement about the author trying to do something or needing help with something." None of this is in the site guidelines for asking questions, it's a concoction invented by camp #1 used to justify blasting away questions and answers that aren't canonical enough for them. If it's in the guidelines, I'd be happy to see it and stand corrected. | |
Jun 10 at 17:22 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | Neither am I. I think I would put myself in camp #2 but I think many people fall somewhere in between. | |
Jun 10 at 17:20 | comment | added | ggorlen | @Dharman I already discussed that in my post "it's worth pointing out because some camp #1-ers seem to think camp #2 is the same as camp #3". I'm not advocating for camp #3, where anything goes. I massively DV and VTC questions (check my stats), but I am totally fine with questions that are good, albeit appear very specific--the difference between camp #1 and #2. I'm advocating for allowing high-enough-quality questions on the site even if they're not destined to be canonical or won't necessarily help more than a few users (you never know who'll be helped). | |
Jun 10 at 17:18 | comment | added | ggorlen | @VLAZ Sure, I've presented a simplification of multiple viewpoints. That's just how categorization and analysis of trends works. Yes, I'm trying to discredit it, that's the point. It's not a caricature because all of the beliefs for camp #1 I've mentioned are backed up by the actions the people in the camp take on a daily basis. Again, we don't require that questions hit a certain number of views to be on topic or useful. You've invented that just now. Maybe one of those views was someone who saved their company $100k by fixing a serious bug. Who knows? Usefulness isn't 1:1 with views. | |
Jun 10 at 17:17 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | And occasional deletion of a very low-quality question can help people not waste time when they are searching for their problem's answer on SO. There's no point in actively seeking out questions to delete, but a mod or SME can review it if they encounter it. And if others disagree then it's also ok. Questions can be undeleted and reopened. | |
Jun 10 at 17:14 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | It's an interesting POV. The site is community-run so there will always be different opinions on what the site should be and what type of questions are ok. However, it's inherent in the design of this site that questions should be useful to other people and not just the OP. Otherwise, the question would be deleted after being answered (like in help desk software) and not searchable from the search engines. If the question is answerable then we may never know if it will ever be helpful to at least 1 more person, but if we are trying to direct people to better answers then dup closures are ok. | |
Jun 10 at 17:07 | comment | added | VLAZ | apply. Nor does "Helping OP solve their specific problem is irrelevant, unless it happens to be a rare potential canonical." appear in the answer. Only really part about it being useful to a large is there. Even then, it seems like Dharman randomly decided this question cannot be useful to others. It's hardly just a whim - we have specific metrics. The question got 70 views over a period of 5 years. That has not been useful. | |
Jun 10 at 17:07 | comment | added | VLAZ | You've taken the most extreme cases of several disparate views, lumped them together, said users either belong there, or in the other extreme of "SO is toxic any time "the mods" (really the community) close or downvote anything." or a somewhat reasonable middle-ground. It's just a caricature of a hardened zealot you present for the sole purpose to discredit it and undermine anything that's not #2. Dharman's answer notably doesn't mention anything about documentation, so "If the question exists in the documentation, has been asked before, or is too specific to one user's situation," doesn't | |
Jun 10 at 17:04 | comment | added | ggorlen | In fact, one of the users who voted to close this regex question against a random general FAQ-style wiki thread also dupe hammered the question I answered today. So yeah, it's clearly the same handful of people behaving exactly as I've described in camp #1, killing most questions in their favorite tags and being generally detrimental to the body of knowledge. The problem really does exist in regex as well as other tags and is well-documented. Not something I made up. | |
Jun 10 at 17:03 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
add python to the list as well
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Jun 10 at 16:59 | comment | added | ggorlen | How is it a strawman? How do you suggest I change it so you feel it isn't? It seems like a clear recap of the viewpoint given in this answer and the behavior of certain power users on the site: in short, the view is that all questions need to be canonical, and if they're not, blast 'em away, either by deletion or dupe, plus DVs, as was clearly done to the post in this thread (and countless others policed by certain camp #1 power users most users who've been on the site for awhile are familiar with, if they've strayed into one of their tags). | |
Jun 10 at 16:59 | comment | added | VLAZ | "It's not a strawman." it is. | |
Jun 10 at 16:58 | comment | added | ggorlen | It's not a strawman. There are a small number users in camp #1, that clearly feel this way, but they have disproportionate power. See the regex link for the most visible example. Why else would people delete and blast away questions just because they're too specific to one user? I had a question I'd answered blasted away this morning for that very reason, even though nobody could come up with a decent duplicate. | |
Jun 10 at 16:57 | comment | added | VLAZ | The whole of 1. is a strawman you've concocted. Then you defeated it with the claim that it's not in the guidelines. It's not. It's also not a view hold by many or maybe even any. | |
Jun 10 at 16:54 | comment | added | ggorlen | @VLAZ It's not a strawman. The other answer states: "A question needs to be useful to the community. That is its main goal. A question cannot just be a statement about the author trying to do something or needing help with something." What made them arrive at these conclusions? These are pulled out of thin air, from the minds of camp #1, not our site guidelines. Please show me the guideline that says "if your question is too unique and not useful to a certain number of future visitors, don't ask". | |
Jun 10 at 16:53 | comment | added | VLAZ | "There's nothing in our guidelines that says a question needs to attempt to be, or be a candidate for being canonical for it to be on topic." that's a strawman. I don't think there are a lot of people who believe every single question should be a canonical. But questions are expected to help more than one person. | |
Jun 10 at 16:48 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 16:43 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 16:37 | history | edited | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 10 at 16:30 | history | answered | ggorlen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |