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Sep 19 at 15:33 comment added imm This policy is what makes me keep my contributions to an absolute minimum. I usually prefer to post elsewhere. This kind of "it's ours forever" grab leaves a bitter taste. That and the creepy data dump. The data dump really could be problematic under GDPR because if someone disassociates their answer, the old dumps may, from a legal point of view, need to be redacted if they still contain the association of the user and the answer.
May 11 at 18:33 comment added NoDataDumpNoContribution @endolith Ask people why they contribute and you'll know. Maybe they just want to help others, maybe they like to work for free, maybe they believe that StackOverflow is one of the good ones, while it's only a company making profit. They might a bit naive too (no offense). All would be good reasons to continue contributing.
May 11 at 18:31 comment added endolith @MarkRotteveel LLMs do retain the training data verbatim in their trained weights, and even if they didn't, they're still a derivative work. arxiv.org/abs/2202.07646 arxiv.org/abs/2301.13188
May 11 at 17:41 comment added endolith @NoDataDumpNoContribution If that were true, what incentive would there be for people to contribute for free? The whole point of Stack Exchange is that it's open-source.
May 10 at 7:38 comment added Mark Rotteveel @AbdulAzizBarkat That depends on if and how training data is retained in the model. In general, LLMs will not retain the training data itself (which doesn't mean that they couldn't reproduce it).
May 10 at 7:33 comment added NoDataDumpNoContribution @endolith "OpenAI does not follow CC BY-SA 4.0, so they are not legally allowed to use our content." Some people think we submit content under two different licenses actually. See Can SE just resell our data, relicense it and remove the attribution requirement?
May 10 at 7:30 comment added NoDataDumpNoContribution @AbdulAzizBarkat "The model itself can't also be considered fair use..." Very interesting questions that unfortunately the courts will have to answer and they may need many years to solve that problem. If only they were faster somehow. I could imagine that a lot of fair uses together also end up in a total unfair use, but where exactly to draw the line. And that would also probably mean the death of AI as we know it, which seems to be difficult to maintain politically. AI was promoted as the future instead. OpenAI and others may simply be thieves that will get away.
May 10 at 7:26 comment added NoDataDumpNoContribution @SylvainGantois "... see how SO reacts losing its users." SO is losing users for many years. The company reacts very slowly and not really as desired. I fully agree with you though. I surely would contribute more if SO was a "better" company, so this effect exists, but I think the even more important idea would not only stop posting here but also start posting somewhere else and taking legal action against OpenAI. But at the same time may be sufficient to change the World.
May 10 at 7:04 comment added Abdul Aziz Barkat @MarkRotteveel to be fair that's not always going to be the case. If the model produces output which does not differ much from the original content used for the training it shouldn't really be considered fair use and should still follow the respective license terms. The model itself can't also be considered fair use (I am considering three separate things with regards to license here the training data, the resulting model and the output from the model), and should be licensed properly considering the training data. I do agree that in most cases the output can be considered fair use though.
May 10 at 6:43 comment added Mark Rotteveel @endolith Except someone from Creative Commons has expressed the opinion that likely training AI is fair use, and thus exempt from conditions such as attribution. And see also this faq
May 10 at 4:00 comment added Ryan M Mod @endolith Stack Overflow's (i.e., the company's) statement on attribution requirements for partnerships is here, including a specific mention of license compliance.
May 10 at 3:33 comment added endolith We submit content under the condition that it's published under CC BY-SA 4.0 and is free to use by anyone forever. OpenAI does not follow CC BY-SA 4.0, so they are not legally allowed to use our content.
May 9 at 22:37 comment added Ryan M Mod @PresidentJamesK.Polk While in most situations, I agree that vote brigades are bad, I think upvoting a meta post (assuming no fraudulent means are used) as described there is a completely reasonable way to express an opinion on matters relating to how the site is run, and certainly a better one than defacing content on a site that is, despite being run by a for-profit company, nonetheless a public resource. After all, one needs to have contributed to the site somehow in order to be able to vote here, so that ensures voters have at least some stake in the issue.
May 9 at 22:19 comment added President James K. Polk @NickleDave: I take a dim view of brigading to up- or downvote questions and answers here. The results are inauthentic, and I regard such actions as unethical.
May 9 at 17:53 comment added NickleDave The best way to protest is to no longer contribute. I'm not in the top 1% like Glyph mastodon.social/@glyph/112412335865418867 but like them, I will not contribute to the creation of an automated data laundering machine, built for the express purpose of making my work in open source invisible, and for denying me power githubcopilotlitigation.com matthewbutterick.com/chron/… I suggest we all do the same bristoluniversitypress.co.uk/resisting-ai
May 9 at 17:19 comment added Zoe - Save the data dump Mod @LuisMachuca There are a lot of questions without good answers surrounding the legality of how SO has handled licensing, particularly wrt. license upgrades. I think the only way we'll get an answer is if someone involves lawyers.
May 9 at 17:14 comment added Luis Machuca Wouldn't removing that link break afoul of the BY requierment of the license? If SO wants to keep the content, they have to do so by respecting the license and the full license.
May 9 at 11:56 comment added Braiam @MarkAmery in that case, personal data is the link of the post to your account. Once that link is gone, the post contains no more personal data. Also, notice that exceptions to this apply, like if you try to disassociate to avoid penalties.
May 9 at 11:16 comment added Kamil Orzechowski Best way was to not post here, even before open AI was founded.
May 9 at 3:03 comment added Sylvain Gantois Best way to fight this is to stop providing content, see how SO reacts losing its users.
May 8 at 15:08 comment added NotTheDr01ds @MarkAmery Fair enough - I think it's probably more accurate to say, though, that the posts themselves are not personal data, but may contain personal date. As noted in my answer, the user certainly has the right to remove any personal data in their posts. For a "name", however, the user is perfectly free to do that simply by using an anonymous username. Then their posts will not have the "name" PII.
May 8 at 12:58 comment added Mark Amery (None of this is to say that the GDPR grants anyone a right to have their posts deleted. For one thing, the Right to Erasure has exceptions; perhaps some apply. For another, I would assume anonymisation, which Stack Overflow offers, is a valid way to implement a Right to Erasure request since it results in the data no longer being personal data (although puzzlingly guidance about Right to Erasure I can find online, including from the UK's privacy regulator doesn't mention this option at all).
May 8 at 12:52 comment added Mark Amery "Questions and Answers you've posted are not personal data as defined by the GDPR." - yes they are, at least if they are associated with your name! Far too many people assume "personal data" is a synonym of "PII"; it is not. The GDPR defines as personal data all information relating to an identifi[ed/able] natural person. Here's a Dutch lawyer specialising in internet law specifically saying the authorship relation counts and thus online posts and messages are personal data: blog.iusmentis.com/2018/04/03/…
May 8 at 10:20 comment added Abdul Aziz Barkat @Lundin not really, if a third person created the account for you Stack Overflow could argue that the content could have also been posted by them. You could bring the third person in but then comes the indemnification clause and the third person has also now broken the terms of service since they require the account holder to be an individual. Anyway this is getting a bit off-topic, lets end this conversation here.
May 8 at 10:10 comment added Lundin @AbdulAzizBarkat The account is tied to my e-mail address so proving that is super easy.
May 8 at 9:04 comment added Abdul Aziz Barkat @Lundin "Whoever clicked some accept button isn't important" then you can't really sue for the account you talk about, since you are effectively a third party (Even proving that you are the actual author of your content on Stack Overflow becomes difficult in that case). That argument basically nullifies any claim you could have made. Point 1 & 2 from your comment is what you can actually argue upon.
May 8 at 8:29 comment added Lundin @AbdulAzizBarkat The point is that I can just say that I have no idea about the ToS and didn't agree to any of it, and nobody can prove it otherwise since I didn't take any legally binding action, such as signing a document. Whoever clicked some accept button isn't important - I can just say I have no idea who did it but it wasn't me.
May 8 at 8:24 comment added Abdul Aziz Barkat @Lundin I'll leave point 1 & 2 upto the company, but point 3 wouldn't really help you. If you say that your friend created the account it will only pull your friend along into the mess, if you read the terms of service you'll see there is a clause for indemnification meaning your friend then takes all responsibility if you sue Stack Overflow with regards to your usage of their account. I'm quite sure there would be some clause somewhere that prevents you from sharing accounts as well.
May 8 at 8:21 comment added yivi They only need to "prove" anything if sued about it. You can argue that your account was created by your cat if you want to sue them. I'd check with an actual lawyer. Maybe all your posts belong to your cat now.
May 8 at 8:17 comment added Lundin @AbdulAzizBarkat 1) That was added after a whole lot of users had already signed up. 2) They have changed the ToS retroactively, making the terms invalid to those who had already signed up 3) They still can't prove that one particular physical person agreed to it/was informed about it. Could be a friend, a hacker, a burglar, a cat walking across the keyboard.
May 8 at 8:13 comment added Abdul Aziz Barkat @Lundin they have this note at the sign up page: "By clicking “Sign up”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy." One can argue this in court but since this notice is IMO put in a noticeable spot its going to be difficult to win. Of course one can say they didn't read the actual terms but that's entirely on the user.
May 8 at 7:59 comment added Lundin How can they prove that anyone agreed to the terms of service? I don't get how those can be legally binding since nobody actively signed anything or identified themselves. How can SO prove that a specific person has been informed and is agreeing on the terms? Obviously a deal which one party wasn't informed about and/or didn't agree upon by explicitly signing it is not valid.
May 7 at 20:23 history edited TylerH CC BY-SA 4.0
Fixed a typo, spelled out acronym, removed superfluous double spaces
May 7 at 20:17 history edited NotTheDr01ds CC BY-SA 4.0
added 230 characters in body
May 7 at 20:11 history answered NotTheDr01ds CC BY-SA 4.0