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Oct 4, 2023 at 21:03 comment added Ryan M Mod @skomisa It's also important to note that the How do I ask a good question? page is advice for askers, not rules or policy for what questions are permitted or useful. But even if it were, it specifically says "Not all questions benefit from including code".
Oct 4, 2023 at 17:07 comment added TylerH @skomisa All that being said, your response just crystalizes that your position seems now to be "Hang on let me keep moving the goal posts". If you would like a policy to be "official" make a post asking for that and describing in detail what you want that to look like (e.g. make a Help Center article). Until then, you gotta deal with the hand your dealt. The best-received position that has any kind of consensus is a post from a CM from 2014. If you wanna do better, do better, don't just complain that a CM's post from 2014 isn't good enough.
Oct 4, 2023 at 17:05 comment added TylerH @skomisa As for why something is not in the Help Center (assuming that's what you mean by SO documentation, which is the name for a dead product), there's been lots of discussion over the years about modifying the Help Center to have more stuff or not, and it's usually stated that that's "hard" and so we just rely on things like faq.
Oct 4, 2023 at 17:04 comment added TylerH @skomisa "Nobody outside of Meta knows or cares about "decisions" made here." How is that statement relevant to this situation, where someone on Meta is asking how the Meta community can help the site? This is not an "ivory tower mentality", it's "how Stack Exchange sites are designed to decide on various community-specific practices".
Oct 4, 2023 at 16:57 comment added skomisa @TylerH I'm objecting to the ivory tower mentality that believes consensus on some issue in 2014 on Meta means it represents SO policy. It doesn't. Nobody outside of Meta knows or cares about "decisions" made here. If SO has a policy on "how do I...", or anything else, then unambiguously put that in the Help Center documentation. And if something is SO policy, why isn't it in the SO documentation? Consensus on something on Meta should be a means to an end - specifying it in SO documentation - rather than viewed as an end in itself. Few SO users know or care about "policy" decisions on Meta.
Oct 3, 2023 at 22:27 comment added TylerH @skomisa Generally when meta consensus is reached on something, it doesn't expire unless a different consensus is subsequently reached. Can you point to a counter-example since 2014 that suggests otherwise? If not, then it seems like your argument is "I don't like that position because it isn't new". Which is not a particularly strong argument.
Oct 3, 2023 at 22:20 comment added skomisa @VLAZ It's hardly "selective reading" - I'm quoting Help Center documentation! But citing a meta post from 2014 as an authoritative source is definitely "selective reading".
Oct 3, 2023 at 19:01 comment added VLAZ @skomisa you're doing selective reading to try and support your point.
Oct 3, 2023 at 18:23 comment added Kevin B @skomisa that article isn't outlining what is and isn't off topic.
Oct 3, 2023 at 18:21 comment added skomisa @RyanM And I'd point you to the Help Center's article How Do I ask a Good Question?. It has a section titled "Introduce the problem before you post any code" which is strongly implies that your question will contain code. A link to a meta post from 2014 is not SO policy; it represents the opinions of a few that your average user is never going to see. Far more users are going to see Help Center articles which do represent SO policy. If it's SO policy to support "How to..." questions then why doesn't the Help Center documentation reflect that?
Oct 3, 2023 at 3:04 comment added Ryan M Mod @skomisa I'd point you to this well-received answer from a Community Manager in 2014 as evidence that what I am describing has been the policy for a very long time (in particular, note the very clear statement that "Trying to maximize effort actively subverts the purpose of this site"). For additional (recent) discussion, see The highest voted questions do not have research effort; this is a bad role model for new users. You are conflating a lack of research effort (asked a duplicate) with a lack of problem-solving effort (didn't include code).
Oct 3, 2023 at 2:11 comment added skomisa In my experience questions of the form "How do I do _____?" often do not include code or any evidence of research effort. What makes me want to scream is when people feed the beast and answer those lazy and mediocre questions rather than downvote them (because they do not "show any research effort"), or close vote them because they are off topic. Furthermore, the help documentation on SO is very heavily oriented towards questions containing code. I think your apparent support for "How do I.." questions without code would represent a huge shift in SO's existing policies.
Oct 2, 2023 at 20:44 comment added Ryan M Mod @IanKemp Sure, I agree with all of that. But the bad questions that need to be shut down tend to either 1) be easily shut down for other reasons (unclear, lacking focus, off-topic, etc.), or 2) have code in them (and are often just spotting a logic error, and totally useless to future readers). So the only marginal questions that are shut down by a "show your code" rule tend to be the good ones. Basically, I'm saying to focus on quality directly rather than using an inaccurate proxy metric like whether the question contains code.
Oct 2, 2023 at 20:40 comment added Ryan M Mod @user2554330 That's a valid objection to this answer, and one I wish I had a more concrete answer to. Part of what I want is an attitude shift toward what makes a question good. I don't really know how, specifically, to achieve that, though. I can make some difference at the margin, by writing on meta and by messaging people on the main site, but trying to change the thinking of a large community is hard. And so I'm suggesting a general direction rather than specific changes, in the hope that someone can figure out how to move the site in that direction.
Oct 2, 2023 at 16:32 comment added Ian Kemp @RyanM The numbers of those possibly being turned away by the "show your code" "rule" pale in comparison to the numbers of bad questions that it allows us to immediately shut down. At the end of the day, everything - and I really do mean everything - comes down to question quality. A lack of bad questions is why "show me the code" wasn't a "rule" for the first half-decade of SO's existence - because it simply wasn't necessary.
Oct 2, 2023 at 13:03 comment added user2554330 I generally agree with what you wrote, but you don't address the question: how to encourage good behaviour?
Oct 2, 2023 at 10:27 comment added Ryan M Mod @IanKemp Couldn't that be in part due to this attitude, though? People have been repeatedly told that they must show an attempt, so anyone who reads the site before asking has a "what's wrong with my code?" question, because that's what they've been told to ask. At least how-to questions can be answered in a general way, even if the asker would prefer a tailored solution (you may not get the accept vote, but you'll get upvotes later if it's useful). I'm also not saying it's just the comments; it's everything that encourages debugging logic errors and discourages how-to questions.
Oct 2, 2023 at 9:42 comment added Ian Kemp 99.9999999% of "How do I do _____?" questions are asking how to fix their code, not to be taught how to fish. Without any code such a question is bad and unanswerable; with code it's just bad; either way it's so narrowly scoped as to be highly unlikely to ever be useful to anyone in the future. So the problem is not "show your attempt" comments, the problem is that the quality of the average question on Stack Overflow is so low, and that's not going to be fixed by discouraging people from posting such comments.
Oct 2, 2023 at 2:28 history answered Ryan MMod CC BY-SA 4.0