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Sep 5, 2023 at 18:02 comment added Ian Kemp @KevinB I absolutely don't want to discourage anyone who is a fan of verbosity from submitting an answer. Long answers can always be edited down to be more concise; short answers can't be edited up. Yes, it's possible to attempt to flesh the latter out - but that has a good chance of either going against the original author's intent, or just adding fluff for the sake of it.
Sep 5, 2023 at 17:58 comment added Kevin B On the other hand... this feature may encourage answerers to do better about getting to the point earlier on in the answer rather than it taking skimming/reading over 2 pages of content before getting to what we're after.
Sep 5, 2023 at 17:55 comment added Ian Kemp @Cerbrus It's not that we don't value brevity at all, it's simply that like Wikipedia, we value verbosity higher.
Sep 5, 2023 at 16:23 comment added Cerbrus I think Ian's intention was to state "Brevity is not an aspect we value here". Factual correctness, and a complete explanation is more valuable.
Sep 5, 2023 at 15:24 comment added Jan Schultke @IanKemp when you say "Stack Overflow is not TikTok. Programming is not tl;dr.", and my post obviously doesn't advocate for making Stack Overflow into anything in this style, then what point are you addressing? It's a blatant misrepresentation of what I've said and completely misses the point made in my post. My post has made it clear that I only intend to target excessively long answers spanning a vast distance, not crop all answers down to a few lines, Tik Tok style.
Sep 5, 2023 at 15:19 comment added Ian Kemp @JanSchultke how is comparing this site to TikTok, to highlight the contrasts and thus bolster my argument, snarky?
Sep 5, 2023 at 13:32 comment added Jan Schultke @Cuzy I was genuinely puzzled by the answer, because I have made it clear in bold text that the cut-off point should be quite substantial, i.e. 5-10 paragraphs. I genuinely believe that the snarky remark in the answer about "Stack Overflow is not TikTok" could only be the result of not having read my question in full, or deliberately misrepresenting it. Either it's an insulting misrepresentation, or the author hasn't read the relevant parts of my post. I won't retract any of that; to me it's unacceptable.
Sep 5, 2023 at 12:54 comment added Cerbrus @Cuzy: That first comment was a serious question, with a lighthearted arbitrary measurement. If anything, I was making fun of my own question there... Then I realized hiding spam was a problem, and my further replies to that are just about that specific issue.
Sep 5, 2023 at 12:46 comment added Jan Schultke @Cerbrus it wasn't dismissal. I was genuinely asking for clarification because I didn't understand your concern, and was interested in your opinion. Your problem is that you interpret other people's statements in the most negative light possible all the time, so you end up misrepresenting them, arguing endlessly in circles, and this also makes you interpret a question for clarification as a "dismissal" of your opinion. I can't help you with that. It also means the argument goes on forever, because you can't have your arch enemies have the last word, right? ;)
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:41 comment added Cerbrus My first comment here was just me asking for some extra details... Then I realized this could hide spam, and stated that I thought this was a bad idea... Then you started dismissing my concern with "if they're not gonna see spam, what's the problem", which is a horrible justification to implement a new feature... But you're just dismissing it. Here's a solution: If you don't like my feedback on your feature request, you can just ignore it. You don't get to tell me where I can and can not provide feedback.
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:37 comment added Jan Schultke @Cerbrus I have had productive discussions with many people here. All I'm asking is that you stop following me around in every comment section just to reprimand, attack, or misrepresent me. You've never even agreed with or acknowledged even a tiny fraction of any statement I've made over something like 50 comments. You're just arguing for the sake of it, with zero compromise.
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:33 comment added Cerbrus Jan, you're posting suggestions on a public website. Other users are free to (dis)agree, and write about that. You're being very dismissive of any disagreement, and I'm asking you to hold yourself to the same standard as you're expecting from others. I don't want to "be right", if I'm wrong I want to be proven wrong, not just dismissed as "that's just your opinion".
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:31 comment added Jan Schultke @Cerbrus please, just leave me alone. I really don't believe that you want to do anything but argue, and be right.
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:27 comment added Cerbrus This: "it looks to me like the author hasn't actually read the full question" is a major red flag, by the way. You're just dismissing Ian's answer, using an approach often used by users with less-than-benign intentions.
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:24 comment added Cerbrus Jan, I'm very active on Meta. It's not weird that we run into each other. Accusing me of targeted interaction like that in counter-productive. You're dismissing this answer as a "hastily written opinion" and a "strawman" (as you've dismissed a lot of other answers), but this answer is based on years of experience on this site. You completely missed the point of my last comment. I'm asking you to hold your own claims to the same standards that you demand from us. Your suggestion here is based on your opinion. Back that up with data. Prove that it's a problem that needs fixing.
Sep 5, 2023 at 11:13 comment added Jan Schultke @Cerbrus if it looks like I'm dismissive of this answer, it's because it looks to me like the author hasn't actually read the full question, not even the disclaimers that I have put in bold text. I also feel insulted by the implication that I want to turn Stack Overflow into "TikTok" or something. An answer should be able to provide more insight into a topic, instead of countering with a hastily written opinion piece that strawmans the author of the question. And quite frankly, I don't need be educated about Meta by someone who follows me on Meta in every comment section just to argue.
Sep 4, 2023 at 16:55 comment added Cerbrus Look, Jan, I realize you're new to Meta... You might not realize that the burden of proof you're demanding equally applies to your claims. If long text is such a large problem, prove it. Back it up with some data. Provide sources stating it's an issue. If you can't do that, you can't honestly dismiss answers opposing your opinion, for the same reasons.
Sep 4, 2023 at 16:07 comment added Jan Schultke Yeah sure, it is a problem to some people. To some other people it is also a problem that massive questions take up a lot of space. Either way, there is some problem. A good answer would quantify these problems, explore trade-offs, and draw a reasonable conclusion. It doesn't help me if you just boldly say "No.", list a few unquantified problems, and then draw a conclusion with no real discussion or trade-offs made. I think the buttons would be a good idea though. It's not like navigation buttons fully solve the problem on their own though, I believe.
Sep 4, 2023 at 16:03 comment added Ian Kemp It doesn't matter how sizeable the chunk is or not; obscuring any part of an answer by default is a problem. The keyboard shortcuts should be augmented by buttons.
Sep 4, 2023 at 13:44 comment added Jan Schultke I appreciate that there are keyboard shortcuts for navigating between answers. That is a useful feature. However, without evidence that a substantial portion of users uses them, or even knows about them, are they really a solution? Obscure features that a selected few know are not a solution to a systemic problem. I would call these shortcuts obscure, because I've used SO for half a decade and just now learned about them.
Sep 4, 2023 at 13:42 comment added Jan Schultke I think this answer fails to consider the suggested cut-off point. I have said that a very sizable chunk should be visible by default; the cut-off point should come after multiple paragraphs. This is not anywhere near "tl; dr" only; this is not anywhere near turning Stack Overflow into "TikTok". If you have taken the time to read my question in full, then I don't understand how you could have arrived at such a conclusion. Maybe it is my bad. If you haven't, then this answer is pointless and insulting.
Sep 4, 2023 at 13:21 history answered Ian Kemp CC BY-SA 4.0