Timeline for Thoughts on the paper "Are Large Language Models a Threat to Digital Public Goods? Evidence from Activity on Stack Overflow"?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
38 events
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Aug 11, 2023 at 13:05 | comment | added | Alex | @DalijaPrasnikar I do have an good idea of what you have tried and what you know about. What you are doing is like questioning that I'm not on a plane right now because you know that planes can not exist because they are heavier than air. You can argue how much you want about the possibility about working planes and accuse me of hallucinating everything, but for me who am actually on the plane flying, it's completely obvious that you are clueless. My work is in building stuff, it's equally obvious what tools makes me more productive and deliver higher quality code or not. | |
Jul 27, 2023 at 11:23 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex The difference between the AI and human input that cannot be trusted is that you can more easily detect the difference between trust worthy information written by person than those written by AI. People that know their stuff also have certain level of confidence that cannot be seen in those that don't have appropriate knowledge. On the other hand AI will spit the utmost stupidity with the confidence of Nobel prize winner. | |
Jul 27, 2023 at 11:19 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex Your overconfidence in your ability to validate AI is the trap you have fallen into. Your own admission that you are using it daily is the proof of that. There is no way that you can use AI on such scale and pay attention to it all. Yes, you cannot trust information on the Internet in general, but that is why I used phrase "reputable resource". If you need to take information that is not coming from reputable resource, you should also not blindly trust it. | |
Jul 27, 2023 at 11:12 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex You have no idea what I have tried and what I have not tried and what I know or don't know. The mere idea that you can validate AI output based on that output alone is simply flawed. You can only validate what you know - in such cases using AI is redundant. In some very narrow circumstances you can also have enough knowledge to validate what you don't know, but this is not how most people approach it and what most people would call validation. | |
Jul 27, 2023 at 10:35 | comment | added | Alex | I find it extremely ironic that you try to argue the uselessness of AI with someone who use it daily in work. What did you say about trust and hallucinations again? Oh yeah right, I'm the one who as fallen into the AI trap so I'm just hallucinating everything? | |
Jul 27, 2023 at 10:08 | comment | added | Alex | @DalijaPrasnikar I'm sorry, you are a complete bigot in this topic. You obviously have not tried it yourself. As for people copy/pasting it here, that's a completely different use case, they are answering questions, not writing code. As for trust it what it's generating, there is no need to "trust" it. I can validate it myself, just like if I would read a blogpost in the web or talk with a college. You seem to be under the impression that an AI would have to be "perfect" to be of value, that is just not how the world works. We always deal with different levels of uncertainty. That's life. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 20:49 | comment | added | Kevin Krumwiede | @DalijaPrasnikar The site would not be ruined; it already has been. And no one, including you or me, was a worthwhile contributor when they asked their first question. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 19:16 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @KevinKrumwiede I am sorry if I misunderstood, but I cannot follow your logic. You are basically saying that we should ruin the site for people that find it useful, to accommodate people that think it is a joke, because some day they just might become worthwhile contributors. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 18:31 | comment | added | Kevin Krumwiede | @DalijaPrasnikar You are absolutely driving them away. The vast majority of developers consider this site a joke. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 18:18 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @KevinKrumwiede Nobody is driving those users away. But they have to follow the rules which exist for a reason. Not having so many useless duplicate questions, means people can devote more time to useful questions and those that just need some polishing to be useful. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 17:01 | comment | added | Kevin Krumwiede | @DalijaPrasnikar They have the potential to become the users you think you want and need, but only if you don't drive them away. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 14:28 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex I don't hate AI. I know what it can do and what it cannot do. Who would copy/paste answers without processing - just look around here. Mods have deleted thousands posts by people copy pasting answers directly from AI. also if you say you will not copy/paste AI without processing it, you are also misusing it. Because you cannot trust a word it spews out, including the code. You have fallen into the AI trap and you think you know better. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 14:07 | comment | added | Alex | @DalijaPrasnikar Sorry but I can't interpret your comments other that you hate AI and want none of it. Have you actually tried using it? I know it brings a lot of value for me and for my other colleagues, you can not argue about that. Who would ever consider "using chat GTP as a tool" as copy/pasting its answers without processing it? That's just silly, you are drawing strawmen on the wall. Just like the people hating on stack overflow 10 years ago for it being a copy/paste resource for bad programmers. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 9:10 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | @DalijaPrasnikar And I said AI without Gen in both my comments and talked about the future but just hinting that this is only a snapshot of the current state and likely to change. Of course I also don't have a crystal ball. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 9:06 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @NoDataDumpNoContribution I specifically said Gen AI for reason as this is kind of AI we are talking about here (and it won't be any better as far as hallucinations are concerned). Also, I don't want to talk about the future as I don't have a crystal ball. If and when there is something significantly new and different we can discuss about it then. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 9:00 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | @DalijaPrasnikar Then some other form of AI. I don't really care what exactly it will be. I'm quite skeptical of all sentences starting with "..AI will never be able to..". People shouldn't make the mistake to take the current state of AI as the endpoint of it. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 8:52 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | Mandatory reading for anyone thinking Gen AI can be used as a tool github.com/mdn/yari/issues/9208 | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 8:15 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @NoDataDumpNoContribution Gen AI will never reach usable state where we can use its content directly. Hallucinations are its core "feature". It is how it works. You can use it as a search, but you need to read the found resource on your own. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 8:11 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex When you say AI is just a tool for developers to use, this statement will be completely misinterpreted and will harm a lot of inexperienced developers and I have seen many experienced ones falling into this trap. So we need to put a foot down and firmly say Gen AI is not a tool in our toolbox. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 8:04 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex Yes, you can use it as search tool, but only if you read what it has found yourself. And this is not how the vast majority of people use AI. And just for the record, I have been programming professionally for over 30 years and almost 40 in total. So yes, I do have some idea on what can be considered as a tool and what not. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 7:56 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex I am not going to comment on whiteboard, pen and paper and stuff like that... Documentation, books, web resources have been written by people who used their intelligence to do that. While you can always find some poor resources out there, if you stick to reputable ones, you can find real knowledge which you can use with confidence. AI takes that knowledge and mashes it up, spitting out something that sounds reasonable, but it is often completely wrong. You cannot trust the word it tells you. So, that is why you cannot use it for learning anything. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 7:43 | comment | added | Alex | @DalijaPrasnikar Other mindless tools I use for solving programming tasks: A whiteboard. Google. A text editor. An IDE. Pen and paper. Colleagues (more or less mindless). A keyboard and a mouse. Sometimes even SO. Documentation. Who has ever needed to argue about the inherent "intelligence" in our tools? Chat GPT is like an awesome personalized search engine. I've been programming for almost 20 years, unlike you (?) I do not expect to be able to copy/paste random code that I find regardless if it's on a old blog in the internet, a post on SO or from a tool like Chat GPT. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 6:53 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | If the new users are not willing to put some effort, then they are not the kind of users we want or need in order to maintain knowledgebase for the future. | |
Jul 21, 2023 at 6:52 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @KevinKrumwiede New users are supposed to search first before dumping their question on SO. If new user in established language (that has a documentation, books, tutorials, and plenty of answers on SO) needs to ask question, the chances are it will be useless duplicate. Ability to figure things out on your own is the most important trait for any developer. And if you are that kind of newbie that you really need some handholding, then you need a teacher or tutor, not SO. | |
Jul 20, 2023 at 22:03 | comment | added | Kevin Krumwiede | Removing "useless" duplicates reduces the potential for future accumulation of knowledge by driving away new users. | |
Jul 20, 2023 at 21:52 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | "Gen AI is not suitable for solving programming problems" Fully agreed. AI is more like a search engine, not like an engineer. But I don't understand why this is a bad thing. Retrieving an existing solution is an important and useful task. One can make money with this. Also this only describes the current state of AI. Who knows what will happen in say a few years. | |
Jul 20, 2023 at 18:47 | comment | added | Ian Kemp | @KarlKnechtel It's always believed me that the people most willing to believe in intelligence of LLMs, are the same people who lack sufficient intelligence to make that judgement. | |
Jul 20, 2023 at 11:48 | comment | added | Passer By | @Laurel AI didn't change the landscape of that calculus. You could always spend less time and do crappy job, it's just now you have more ways of doing a crappy job. | |
Jul 20, 2023 at 10:19 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Alex If you are using Gen AI for programming then you are misusing it. It is a mindless chat bot. | |
Jul 20, 2023 at 6:59 | comment | added | Alex | Guys, people have been saying the same thing about Stack Overflow and "it's mindless copy-paste culture". Get with the change. GenAI is a tool, you can use it or misuse it. | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 15:25 | comment | added | user4581301 | Or, worse, the relatives of the dead customers start suing. | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 15:17 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Laurel all is good until customers start screaming. | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 13:43 | comment | added | Laurel | @DalijaPrasnikar Teachers, sure, but I'm not sure about bosses. If it means getting things done faster and cheaper, will they really object to AI, even at the expense of quality? | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 13:25 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Laurel Most likely. But plenty of people also have some supervisors or teachers and will get stuck in some AI crap sooner or later. | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 13:09 | comment | added | Laurel | "…they just need to get burned by the AI few times before that." Ah, but it's not going to be them who gets burned but us, the people who will be unwittingly using the software people like that make. | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 13:07 | history | edited | Laurel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jul 19, 2023 at 9:00 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | Good points here. The best way to use AI to improve Stack Overflow is... to let people use it off site, realize their questions are trivial, and thus have them stop adding to the garbage heap. The downside of this, of course, is that it validates the hordes of clueless people who think this proves something negative about Stack Overflow, or demonstrates the "intelligence" of large language models. At least, in their own minds. | |
Jul 19, 2023 at 8:27 | history | answered | Dalija PrasnikarMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |