Timeline for Can users be sanctioned for (admitting to) using SO's first party AI formatting assistant?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
54 events
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Jun 19, 2023 at 20:31 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | Because it's against the site rules. You can tell it's against the rules because it says so in the help center. Note that only the company can edit that page. The dispute with the company is over the manner in which we are permitted to moderate it, not whether it is forbidden in the first place, which, again, it is. If there is something unclear about this, you can ask a meta question about it, but please stop discussing it on answers. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:10 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB yeah and you haven't clarified why it is nonsense. Some group of users here isn't better than any other user. They don't need to get to decide what tools, including AI, anyone else can use to generate their posts | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:09 | comment | added | Kevin B | @user13267 no, i clarified my comment. But we're going in circles, i've already explained why "If someone wants to use AI to help generate posts, it's nobody's business to tell him he can't, especially not other users here" is nonsense. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:07 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB are you trying to change topic now or did you not understand what I was saying? I am not talking about whatever AI SE is using | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:06 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | A large number of comments unrelated to this answer have been removed. Please keep the discussion related to this answer. If you want to discuss something else, such as whether you are or are not currently allowed to use AI to help generate posts generally, please post a new question or answer. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:05 | comment | added | Kevin B | sorry, i just referred the most common one, my understanding is SE is using something else, but it's the same tech or a derivative. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:04 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB if "people who are opposing what we're pushing for mostly want what we want" just understand that your approach of dealing with this isn't necessarily the best either. It's just the approach that has been shoved unto other users because some group of users think they are the "community" and think they know better than everyone else. And I am not discussing which AI chatbot is better or worse than others because that's not important. If someone wants to use AI to help generate posts, it's nobody's business to tell him he can't, especially not other users here | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 20:00 | comment | added | Kevin B | In it's current iteration, chatgpt is an awful editor, it's half decent at writing titles but still gets it wrong occationally, and can't revise questions without hallucinating code that wasn't there before or modifiying code. The technology is not there yet, but SE is working on it. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:59 | comment | added | Kevin B | I think people who are opposing what we're pushing for mostly want what we want, they just disagree with how we want to get there or aren't seeing the whole picture. Opening the flood gates and just letting the network get inundated with crap until we have a proper way of dealing with it will quickly leave us in a position we can't dig ourselves out of. This is evidenced by the sheer volume of gpt answers we received when this first occurred late last year and how many we still receive on a daily basis even after losing a large percentage of traffic. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:55 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB Exactly, this heavily downvoted answer you commented on isn't promoting AI spam, neither are the dissenting view points I have posted. Some people think "responsible AI policy" should be what ever agenda they are trying to push, including the "ban anything with AI" "policy". This is definitely not the next best option, just because some group of users think it is. There are number of people who are capable of using AI responsibly. Some group of users shouldn't be the ones gatekeeping them from the site. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:48 | comment | added | Kevin B | No, we want a responsible AI policy. if AI is to be a part of the network, it needs to be regulated such that it can be properly curated to keep the same level of quality that the network currently enjoys, the level of quality that has kept it relevant for 13 years. Until such a policy exists (and tooling to support it) the next best option is to prevent it until we do. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:47 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB yeah and your "opinion" that you want given a chance, is the same "ban anything with AI" agenda we were talking about earlier I suppose? The one that some users want to forcefully push on everyone else because they think they are the "community" and should be allowed to gatekeep what tools other users should be using to generate their posts? | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:44 | comment | added | Kevin B | @user13267 what i mean is, currently SE is in negotiations with us to end the "strike", not ignoring us or brushing the whole thing aside. If they were past giving our opinion a chance they'd have moved on by now. That doesn't mean they won't pull a reddit in a few weeks to a month and just opt for replacing mods and moving forward anyway. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:41 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB then what are these people striking about? I was under the impression their gripe was that SE does not want posts with any AI to be banned, which goes against the "don't allow anything with AI" agenda some people wanted to push. Seems like SE is actually agreeing with me, if you value SE's opinion that much | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:38 | comment | added | Kevin B | That's for the company to decide, not us. They can choose whose opinion to value how much, given they own the platform. It seems currently they don't agree with you, but that could certainly change in the coming months. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 19:30 | comment | added | user13267 | @KevinB "that's one policy, that was presented to the community, discussed with the company, and widely supported." yeah and that's why the gripers are complaining about dual policies and striking against SE right? If those strikers were happy SE was supporting their agenda by putting in that public policy, and pointing to it to justify their anti AI "community consensus" agenda, then they don't get to complain when the same SE is saying maybe AI should not be completely banned. | |
Jun 19, 2023 at 8:13 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | @prusswan "4000 is far from representative of all SO users, this is plain as day." Amazing. Next you will tell me that political polling can't possibly ever give meaningful results. Alternately: if 3855 votes in favour don't mean anything, why should we then give any consideration to the position against, which only gathered 74 votes? | |
Jun 18, 2023 at 10:09 | history | edited | Franck Dernoncourt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 18, 2023 at 10:07 | comment | added | Franck Dernoncourt | @SyedM.Sannan thanks, I found it. meta.stackoverflow.com/a/424041/395857 "Tools like translators or grammar checkers are allowed, provided that you wrote the input to them" sounds like the post on the AI ban should be made more precise. | |
Jun 18, 2023 at 10:05 | comment | added | Syed M. Sannan | @FranckDernoncourt I am not sure about the details, but there is a meta SO question that specifically asks about this tool called grammarly, which I read is allowed. I'll try to fetch the question again for you if possible in a while. | |
Jun 18, 2023 at 5:31 | comment | added | prusswan | The vote is non-compulsory, I would have voted against but I don't have any vested interest in resisting ChatGPT. 4000 is far from representative of all SO users, this is plain as day. | |
Jun 18, 2023 at 4:36 | comment | added | Franck Dernoncourt | @SyedM.Sannan "you can use spelling and grammar correction tools" not if they use generative AI, from my understanding of the man. This seems to be confirmed by Ryan's comment. | |
Jun 18, 2023 at 4:31 | history | edited | Franck Dernoncourt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 18, 2023 at 0:32 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | Or in other words: using generative AI for spelling and grammar correction is problematic due to the fact that it doesn't really understand what it's supposed to be doing, and thus is prone to doing things like rewriting the content entirely. | |
Jun 18, 2023 at 0:29 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | @SyedM.Sannan That's correct; my impression is that Grammarly is not generative AI. The problem with generative AI is that it has no understanding of what it is "editing" and may decide to rewrite it entirely to have fundamentally different content (as SO's so-called "formatting assistant" often does; it changes sensible questions to no longer make any sense). | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 23:45 | comment | added | Syed M. Sannan | "it's a generic ban against the use of generative AI and subsequently includes many potential use cases beyond generating an answer from scratch such as formatting improvement, grammar and spelling correction" What? I am fairly certain that you can use spelling and grammar correction tools, such as Grammarly on StackOverflow. The ban is only for getting the answer's actual content via A.I. afaik. Please correct me if I am wrong though. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 23:03 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | If you're actually interested in the situation, then there's quite a bit of information about it already on Meta Stack Exchange, and here on MSO. Our view is that SE hasn't even come close to justifying their position. But, here isn't where the dispute between those on strike and SE should be hashed out. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 23:03 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @user13267 SE's case would be a lot stronger if they could/would point to even a single moderator action which they think was wrong. They can't/won't. We've asked them repeatedly to show us where they think we're doing things wrong, but they haven't provided any. We want to know. We want to learn. Moderators know we're not perfect. We know we make mistakes. We can point to a few where we've reversed the action, ether on our own after review with another moderator, or where a user has replied to the moderator message and requested things be re-reviewed, but SE refuses. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 22:54 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @user13267 If you feel people are putting down others, or acting like they are "better than" others, then it's probably a good idea to raise a flag. Raising a flag is the method to resolve situations between users which are not remaining civil. You can, of course, also use the "contact"/"contact us" link that's in the footer of every page. If you don't raise a flag or use "contact"/"contact us", there's really not that much that can be done for a specific situation. The site is way too big and there are too few moderation resources for everywhere to be directly monitored. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 21:40 | comment | added | user13267 | @Makyen SE getting toxic has nothing with everyone not getting what they, and mostly to do with many of the so called older, higher rep users thinking they are the "community", they are better than other users because they "helped make the site what it is" etc. A glimpse of the same attitude you showed here in the comments. And if you're satisfied that some users who were suspended due to "which SE authorized and encouraged moderators to do", you dont get to complain when the same SE is saying maybe those suspensions shouldn't have been given | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 19:10 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @prusswan No, SE definitely can't ban 3,850 users, particularly productive and engaged users, without batting an eye, not even close. In fact, SE's claims about the company's new, secret, AI-generated-content policy, about which many SE mods and users are on strike across all sites, are, according to SE, entirely about moderators giving, over a 6 month period, a short suspension (1 to 7 days; which SE authorized and encouraged moderators to do) once to each of about that many users who aren't already productive and engaged with the platform, so a big deal. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 19:04 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @prusswan The score on the "Temporary policy: Generative AI (e.g., ChatGPT) is banned" post is the highest score ever on Meta Stack Overflow. It's been featured for 6 months, has appeared on every question page for that entire time. There was an all-page, site-wide banner displayed for 2 weeks. If that isn't enough to indicate a consensus, then nothing is, and we should pack-in the entire concept of running the site by consensus. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 18:00 | comment | added | prusswan | A vote with less than 4000 participating users is hardly representative, SE can easily ban 3850 users without batting an eyelid. At least that's what Elon Musk taught me. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 17:52 | history | edited | Franck Dernoncourt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 17, 2023 at 17:33 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | Yes, it is typical for people who aren't getting everything they want to call the situation "toxic", when that's not even close to the real situation. It's unfortunate that people reach for that word merely because they aren't getting everything they want, because it significantly devalues actual issues of real toxicity. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 17:29 | comment | added | user13267 | ...This smug superiority complex that some users here seem to have over others, that they think they should be the ones gatekeeping the site for everyone else, is also one of the reasons SE gets accused of getting more toxic. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 17:28 | comment | added | user13267 | ...That doesn't make someone who doesn't bother reading meta posts but wants to use AI as a tool any less of a user than others. If this site operates on consensus of users it shouldn't be the few hundreds or thousands of users that seem to agree with whatever agenda some people want to push. If AI was something banned by SE itself like spam or ad links, may be it could get deleted. Their site, their rules. But it's not the business of some users to decide how other users want to use the site. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 17:28 | comment | added | user13267 | @Makyen sure, lets ban anything with AI, so obviously it can be claimed to be working. No AI spam if no AI at all right? And there definitely is no reason for a group of users to get to decide how anyone else chooses to generate their post. If they had used a spelling corrector I suppose that should be deleted too as it's not something completely made by them. And your comment "98.11% of users who voted" only shows approval of the users who saw that post and wanted to vote. Lots of others might not have voted for a number of reasons... | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 17:20 | history | edited | Franck Dernoncourt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 17, 2023 at 17:06 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | B) the "Temporary policy: Generative AI (e.g., ChatGPT) is banned" has overwhelming support, with 98.11% of users who voted approving the policy (3850 up, 74 down). Even when including responses from users who can't actually vote (1,362 up, 243 down, or 84.86% approval of just those who can't vote), the total approval rate for the AI -generated-content ban is 94.27% (5,212 up, 317 down). These sites, generally, operate on a consensus of the users. The approval of the policy to ban AI -generated content is one of the clearest consensuses we have. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 17:06 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @user13267 Yes, banning AI generated content has, generally, been working. Yes, there is definitely reasons for a group of users to get to decide that others can't dump work which they haven't actually done onto the site. A) It is company policy, as codified in the Code of Conduct: Inauthentic usage policy, that all work by such tools must be properly referenced; and | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 14:47 | comment | added | user13267 | @Makyen yeah and just banning anything that might have something generated by AI in it works? As I have also pointed out in my previous comment, there's no way for anyone to tell for certain if something has been generated by AI, so your problem is still not solved. There is no reason for a group of users to get to decide all the other users don't get to use whatever tool it is that they prefer | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 14:39 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @user13267 As has been explained, many, many times, since ChatGPT was first announced, evaluating these only on a quality metric doesn't work, due to AI generator's ability to spout "eloquent bullshit", and can't work at SO's scale with the available human resources, particularly subject matter experts. We can't get even close to the human resources which would be required. Allowing AI generated content masquerading as human generated content is antithetical to the site's goal of "working together to build a library of detailed, high-quality answers to every question about programming." | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 14:33 | comment | added | user13267 | @Makyen I never said AI detectors were accurate nor that they can be used as basis for suspending a user for posting AI content. I am not talking about anyone falling for any red herring. The problem here is not AI or AI detectors but the thinking that all AI has to be banned, when AI is a tool and anyone should be free to use whatever they want to generate their post. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 14:21 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @user13267 As far as I know, nobody significantly involved in finding AI generated content on SE has thought that AI detectors were accurate since early/mid December 2022, except the CMs/staff. We, of course, hope that changes, but we haven't seen it. OTOH, AI detectors can be of some use, similar to some of the detections which SmokeDetector uses which, historically, have a very low TP rate, even as high as 84% FP. The human evaluating it needs to know and account for the bad signal. Everything that SE staff has said about AI detectors was only news to them and is entirely a red herring. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 13:56 | comment | added | user13267 | @Makyen the type of abuse you're talking about can be done by a 100k+ user. The OP is just using 1k as a reasonably good rep level for his example. "The argument that only a quality metric be used is flawed" I had the feeling reading previous posts that the metric most of these people want to use is their judgement of what is generated by AI, since even they can't practically support the idea that AI content recognizer services are accurate. And there is already a workaround for this, which is judge a post on it's merit. not on the possible tool that was used to create that post | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 13:26 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @user13267 Of course, some percentage of AI generated content won't be able to be distinguished from human generated content. Being able to create such indistinguishable content has been one of the holly grails which "AI" has been striving to achieve for the last 60 years, but it's not there, yet, most of the time. The argument that only a quality metric be used is flawed, because it's been demonstrated to not work, and can't work at SO's scale with the human resources we have available, particularly SMEs. This has all been argued before. You're welcome to read earlier posts for context. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 13:22 | comment | added | Franck Dernoncourt | @Makyen much less likely and just toss away those accounts. Takes a bit of time to regain 1k afterwards | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 13:19 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @FranckDernoncourt Thinking that users with > 1k rep won't abuse it is very naive, because they definitely already do. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 13:12 | comment | added | user13267 | @Makyen one could make the same arguments against banning all AI based contents as well. How would anyone know what content has been generated/retouched by AI? Just because some people claim they can tell by looking at a post? If a post is genuinely bad, close/downvote/delete/whatever for being that, not for possibly being AI. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 12:57 | comment | added | Franck Dernoncourt | @Makyen Users could provide the prompt, but idk where though (pastebin? chat? invisible text?). Definitely inconvenient. Anyway I'm against the ban. Just make it ok for users with >1k rep. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 12:48 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | If that's your proposal, please explain in detail how we can practically implement such a policy? In particular, explain how such a policy can be implemented in a manner which A) is within the human resources available to the site, including both moderators and non-moderators, and how that scales to the volume of content which SO sees; and B) will keep 99%+ of AI-generated content off of the site. Also note that a large number of people will not obey any policies which you propose, and that you have no resources from Stack Overflow developers to make any changes to the site. | |
Jun 17, 2023 at 12:43 | history | edited | Franck Dernoncourt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 17, 2023 at 12:04 | history | answered | Franck Dernoncourt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |