Timeline for Policy: Generative AI (e.g., ChatGPT) is banned
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
54 events
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Dec 25, 2022 at 20:43 | comment | added | badp | @Lundin I agree that the feedback loop that is going to occur from machine learning models learning from the output of other machine learning models is going to be a challenge as researchers are "poisoning the well" as it were. A large amount of the internet is already fully automated like nearly every piece of "news" covering movements in the stock market. That isn't Stack Overflow's business to worry about, and if it is, clearly marking automatically generated content as automatically generated so it can be skipped from future training is probably a good thing | |
Dec 24, 2022 at 22:16 | comment | added | User 123732 | It's true that above that particular software itself and the bad rep it gives to Stack, only the fool would resist implementing AI in their day to day in the foreseeable future. | |
Dec 19, 2022 at 15:45 | comment | added | Lundin | "Basically, you create some kind of system user that posts an AI-generated answer to ~every question." And where is the AI going to learn the answer from? The Internet sure, but it needs to weigh which sites that are credible. Lets suppose it thinks SO with your AI add-on is credible. Now as that AI learns programming, it fetches answers from SO. Except half of them are generated by an AI. The AI can then either: 1) ignore AI answers since they aren't credible or 2) learn from AI answers, in which case you've created infinite recursion. Either way nothing useful comes out in the other end. | |
Dec 9, 2022 at 9:44 | history | edited | Henke - Нава́льный П с м | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Pointing to the answer, not the user.
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Dec 9, 2022 at 1:40 | comment | added | Security Hound | "after seeing how effective ChatGPT often is at answering certain types of programming questions, I think there are ways that technology could be used to improve StackOverflow." - You must not be reading answers generated by ChartGPT if you think the answers are effective, because every answer I have read generated by ChartGPT, have been either (incorrect, inaccurate, or incomplete) and most of the time a combination of two or more of those adjectives. In summary, answers produced by ChartGPT, in my experience are not even worth downvoting, they are that bad. | |
Dec 7, 2022 at 16:29 | comment | added | Ajedi32 | I don't necessarily agree with the specific implementation suggested here, but after seeing how effective ChatGPT often is at answering certain types of programming questions I think there absolutely are ways that technology could be used to improve StackOverflow. Identifying off-topic answers and duplicates, asking clarifying questions, or even outright answering low-effort questions before they're posted are all within the realm of possibility. The main issue right now is probably the cost of running the model, and the implementation effort of integrating with SO in an actually useful way. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 18:59 | comment | added | 9072997 | @Dharman "So if a robot can give you an answer, why should it be posted on Stack Overflow?" - If Google or a library can give you an answer, why should it be posted on Stack Overflow? Accessibility. Don't get me wrong; the current situation is a mess and should not be allowed to continue, but if ChatGPT was actually good it would be nice to have it answer questions here. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 18:41 | comment | added | user50049 | A super power people crave is being able to express themselves better. I think you're right in that this isn't going away, and if implemented as assistive instead of prescriptive, could result in people writing way better questions. I also see the potential to help people write answers too, but perhaps as a coach and not a co-author. I think it could do what guided "wizards" just don't do very well. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 16:40 | comment | added | Kevin B | Disallowing it and strictly enforcing penalties against users who abuse it is enough of a stop-gap to make people think twice about participating. It certainly won't stop the abuse, but it's good enough to make a dent. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 16:38 | comment | added | badp | @KevinB Yes, I agree that those people need to understand that this kind of gaming isn't gonna result in good things. One way to do so is to start intelligently embracing this technology at a platform level while it's still trash, because it's only going to get better from here and simply disallowing robot-made answers is a losing game. "StackOverflow now requires users to install dedicated kernel drivers to make sure every character they press comes straight from human fingers with a pulse and a soul." | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 16:20 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Active reading. Added some context.
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Dec 5, 2022 at 15:56 | comment | added | Kevin B | For the one person copy-pasting answers, of course it's a time saver. If you have the ability to properly edit the answer into shape, You could have probably written it yourself in the same amount of time. The problem is the people posting these answers aren't doing that. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 15:54 | comment | added | badp | @KevinB I've seen both cases where these answers are uncurably wrong, and cases in which you can make them right with some light editing work. In the latter case, having a mostly correct answer available for tweaking is going to save us work and energy. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 15:52 | comment | added | Kevin B | the plagiarism issue is small potatoes (assuming it exists at all) compared to the fact that the majority of the answers are deceivingly wrong. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 15:49 | comment | added | badp | @Cerbrus eh. You're gaining reputation for the wrong kind of work (generating the correct prompts vs writing the correct answer); whether that's misrepresentation or plagiarism, we can agree that it's wrong. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 15:14 | comment | added | Cerbrus | Ah, then it's not a plagiarism issue, it's a misrepresentation issue :D | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 15:11 | comment | added | Abdul Aziz Barkat | @Cerbrus I guess you still might have to mention that the content is AI generated, see Section 2c, point (v) it says "You may not represent that output from the Services was human-generated when it is not" of the terms you linked. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:48 | comment | added | Cerbrus | The problem is that users don't put that kind of effort into their copy-pastes. If they did, this would've taken so much longer to notice (and frankly would've been less of a problem, as OpenAI isn't that strict on plagiarism: "OpenAI hereby assigns to you all its right, title and interest in and to Output." (source)) | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:46 | comment | added | badp | @Cerbrus Plagiarism is my primary concern. From my limited exploration ChatGPT often gets close or very close to being bang on the money, but misses the mark. In those cases, it's gonna be better for us to start from a nearly correct answer and actually making it right than it is to make people start from scratch — and enable plagiarists to plagiarize. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:44 | comment | added | Cerbrus | That's an entirely different debate. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:44 | comment | added | badp | @Cerbrus false. You still have a massive plagiarism issue. You're selling ChatGPT-made copyright-free answers as your own work. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:43 | comment | added | Cerbrus | @badp If the answers weren't rubbish, this wouldn't have been a problem in the first place. Duh. The whole entire friggin issue here is users posting AI-generated content en masse, without checking the answers. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:42 | comment | added | badp | If you're so sure about all these answers being unsalvageable rubbish, you'd agree to run a limited trial like I describe in my post that then proves you right, concluding that the tech isn't there yet. The data you collect and publish will let everyone know they can stop trying to game the system. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:40 | comment | added | badp | @kaya3 you don't know they're rubbish. You don't have data to make this assertion with. If they really were rubbish they wouldn't be creating overwork for moderators. I've seen gpt write very patient, mostly correct explanations on how a certain piece of code works and in those cases it would be better use of our limited time on earth to edit them up rather than start from scratch. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:37 | comment | added | kaya3 | That presupposes that there are rubbish answers which need to be downvoted in order to be removed from sight. But what you're proposing is to create those rubbish answers, automatically, en masse. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:35 | comment | added | badp | @kaya3 downvoting rubbish answers is MORE important to the health of the website than writing answers for questions that are already suitably answered. Whether the suitable answer was written by a human or a bot is irrelevant, so long as there's no plagiarism going on. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:08 | comment | added | kaya3 | ... Stack Overflow already has a lot of users posting (non-AI-written) answers that "seem right", that the OP may be satisfied with, but are wrong in ways which cannot be demonstrated by "trying them out" (and this often makes it hard to convince the person who wrote the answer that they are wrong, too). Bad answers like that waste a lot of people's time, the site needs less of them, not more. As for "voting is integral to the site", of course it is, but the site is better off if experts spend their time writing good answers, instead of checking and downvoting rubbish answers. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:06 | history | edited | badp | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
the classic strategy of trying to dig yourself out of a −17 score hole by making your hole deeper
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Dec 5, 2022 at 14:05 | comment | added | kaya3 | There are many questions on Stack Overflow which the person asking cannot try out first hand and see if they are correct. Consider a question like "will a linked list be more efficient than an array in this case?" with an answer like "a linked list will be more efficient because most of the operations are at the start of the list". If the OP was able to try it out and see which was more efficient then they wouldn't have asked the question, and the answer doesn't tell them how to try it out. "What is the time complexity of this algorithm?" is another class of such questions, which ... | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 14:05 | history | edited | badp | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
the classic strategy of trying to dig yourself out of a −17 score hole by making your hole deeper
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Dec 5, 2022 at 14:01 | comment | added | badp | @kaya3 having to vote on answers is an integral part of this website. So long as voting on such an answer doesn't go towards building someone's personal brand or unethical research goals ("look at my reputation!") and it does surface useful content (chatgpt will occasionally get answers right), I don't see the problem. As someone who's experiencing a problem first-hand, trying the automatic answer out and voting it up and down will probably not take very much effort at all. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 13:09 | comment | added | kaya3 | The problem this ban is meant to solve is that ChatGPT can produce answers in seconds which require minutes of multiple people's time to verify if they are worth having on the site or not, and that is a waste of time when a large proportion of such answers are not worth having on the site. If every question automatically received an answer like that, it would make the problem worse, not better, by requiring more people to spend more time verifying and voting on those answers. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:40 | comment | added | badp | @Dharman that's desired user behaviour, not actual user behaviour. If things were that easy, we'd never need to close questions as duplicate. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:39 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | @badp Because they looked for it already on Google. Asking a question on Stack Overflow is the last resort. It means that a question like that hasn't been asked by anyone else yet. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:37 | comment | added | badp | @Dharman How does someone asking a question know ahead of time that their answer is contained within theinternet.zip? In terms of being humble, wouldn't that be your default assumption? | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:37 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | @badp Precisely. So if a robot can give you an answer, why should it be posted on Stack Overflow? | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:35 | comment | added | badp | @Dharman I still don't see the contradiction: if the answer to trivial questions is found within theinternet.zip, doesn't that free human beings to research the harder, more interesting questions that aren't so trivially solved? The human side of Stack Overflow — the peer validation — is still there and no robot can give you that. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:32 | comment | added | badp | Additionally: ChatGPT is basically trained on the same dataset as Google: theinternet.zip; what's gonna be tough to Google is gonna be equally tough for ChatGPT to answer. Ultimately we don't know what its ability to answer questions is gonna be like until a trial like this is run. Stack Exchange can run it themselves, or any number of universities can run it on this website for academic research. The difference is that universities need not do their research ethically. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:32 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | @badp No, I am saying that the purpose of Stack Overflow is to provide quality answers to common problems. These answers can then be found by humans searching for the same issues. A bot answering every question on Stack Overflow would go against the purpose of the site. We already have this issue with some users who add a code-only answer or repeat the same solution on multiple questions. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:29 | comment | added | badp | @Dharman Are you suggesting that your work is worthless? As a former Stack Exchange moderator myself, I would vehemently disagree | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:28 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | @badp Because if getting an answer can be automated, what is the point in building a repository of answers like Stack Overflow? | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:27 | comment | added | badp | @Dharman elaborate? I really don't see how having a robot handling what would only really be the x% easiest answers on the website automatically — a quality problem that has been a thorn in the side of the website for decades, might I add — would somehow defeat the purpose of a human-run Q&A website. The human curation is still there; the human contribution is still there; the human validation is still there; the human moderation is still there. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:25 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | This would defeat the purpose of Stack Overflow. It actually sounds like a completely different service. GH Copilot is doing something like that already, doesn't it? | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:25 | comment | added | badp | @Cerbrus you are arguing that Stack Overflow has no choice but to implement my answer, then. After all, ChatGPT is only the first but not necessarily the last, best, or cheapest way to build a Q&A answering machine. We might see a stablediffusion-style version of this model that's open access and good eonugh for most uses. Own the abuse, or drown by it. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:18 | comment | added | badp | @NineBerry the idea of running the model a whole lot of times and picking the best answer is almost certainly already baked into ChatGPT (generate many outputs, pick the highest quality one), meaning that yes you can reroll by hand but it's not going to be super effective | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 12:01 | comment | added | Cerbrus | "if this does become too expensive for Stack Overflow, it's gonna also be too expensive for random Joe's trying to gain cheap reputation this way" A thousand users with a thousand free / trial accounts can posts tens of thousands of generated answers... SE, a single entity, will have to fork over cash for every single answer they automatically generate. You can't compare corporate usage with individual usage. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:55 | comment | added | Cerbrus | So an automated bot dumps crap answers on questions... You're missing one glaring problem: ChatGPT doesn't return the same answer for the exact same question twice, so any user that probably also doesn't use the exact same input will absolutely get a different answer... This solution can't solve anything, other than a overflowing wallet. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:55 | comment | added | NineBerry | ChatGPT does not give a canonical answer to a certain question. If you ask the same question multiple times, you will get multiple different answers that sometimes even make conflicting statements. There seems to be a random element used when the AI generates its answer. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:44 | comment | added | Marcus Müller | yepyep, agreeing with you! The good news is that OpenAI themselves say it's free for the duration of the public preview; in other word, this is a promo phase to get customers, but even more likely, big investors, hooked. Who cares if you break the internet and make 20 million in debt if you're getting bought for 200 million afterwards? | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:43 | comment | added | badp | I added that paragraph into the answer; it shouldn't have remained in my head | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:42 | history | edited | badp | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 295 characters in body
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Dec 5, 2022 at 11:40 | comment | added | badp | Yes, I addressed that point towards the end. It's possible that, even if successful, this trial can't work for financial reasons. The good news is that, if this does become too expensive for Stack Overflow, it's gonna also be too expensive for random Joe's trying to gain cheap reputation this way. My understanding is that the problem, for now, is the gold rush of random Joe's trying to get a number to go up. | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:37 | comment | added | Marcus Müller | I'd like to point out that OpenAI probably pays big time right now for the server, GPU and memory and electricity it uses, not even considering the training costs (these typically range in the lower single-digit millions for complex language models). An OpenAI-paid-for ChatGPT answer is going to be really expensive if someone actually needs to pay for it. (We're talking spacefaring carbuilding lunatic billionaire-sized venture capital being burnt here.) | |
Dec 5, 2022 at 11:28 | history | answered | badp | CC BY-SA 4.0 |