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May 28, 2022 at 22:24 comment added Karl Knechtel I don't understand what you're suggesting. Some kind of AI to make the kind of comments I currently do?
May 28, 2022 at 16:05 comment added Makoto @KarlKnechtel; If people want the feedback, petition the system to express it on our behalf, not us. If we act as stop-gaps to the system, then we will never achieve consistent and useful feedback to users in this situation which would entirely defeat the purpose you're so desperately yearning for.
May 28, 2022 at 12:14 comment added Karl Knechtel It seems like people keep complaining about the duplicate meta posts asking why downvotes don't require an explanatory comment. What they seem to be missing is that people actively want the feedback. Those posts are being made by people who want the feedback, because they want the feedback, and it feels devastatingly awful not to get it and just see a negative number next to your content. Seriously, the emotion is so strong that it's a bit hard for me to type this all out. Also: the reasoning in the top answer for the canonical is IMO deeply flawed, and I wish I could comment there.
May 28, 2022 at 12:07 comment added Karl Knechtel @Makoto "Someone lashing out at us is seldom because they thought their question was downvotable - they've more than likely taken it as an attack on their own character." What I don't understand is how so many people apparently take it for granted that taking the opportunity to explain the problem with the question somehow makes it more likely that the downvote will be taken as a personal attack. I've lost count of the times I've gotten frustrated - across the entire Internet - because I couldn't get anyone to explain the negative feedback I was receiving.
May 28, 2022 at 12:03 comment added Karl Knechtel @KevinB there are many, many places where I would blame the site UI for poor communication with users. Users seeing Please consider and understanding Thou shalt is absolutely not one of them. That's 100% on the users in question. That said, I strongly believe that comments on downvotes should happen more often, which is why I personally comment on all my downvotes (and sometimes even hold back the downvote) and put considerable effort into them. I strongly believe that telling people specifically how to behave better, correlates with them eventually actually behaving better.
May 28, 2022 at 11:59 comment added Karl Knechtel @MisterMiyagi 100% agreed. Commenting something along the lines of Welcome to Stack Overflow. Please read [ask] and <lengthy, specific description of how to improve the post> has become my primary way of interacting with the site. On a day that I decide to check in, I might do this dozens of times and get an upset OP maybe once. I shrug it off because I know that I am the established community member upholding community norms. I get thankful feedback much more often. Also, from personal experience it feels vastly worse to be downvoted without feedback, than with.
May 27, 2022 at 15:31 comment added Makoto @Gimby I do appreciate the edit but the tone of my response there is that people still presume they're being downvoted, even though we don't downvote people - we downvote content. Someone lashing out at us is seldom because they thought their question was downvotable - they've more than likely taken it as an attack on their own character.
May 27, 2022 at 15:31 history rollback Makoto
Rollback to Revision 1
May 27, 2022 at 10:08 comment added PM 2Ring As I've said before, the system should make it impossible to comment on a post that you've downvoted, and vice versa. IMHO, that would eliminate most angry reprisals, revenge downvotes, etc.
May 27, 2022 at 9:17 history edited Gimby CC BY-SA 4.0
change the text so it does not imply we downvote people
May 26, 2022 at 16:12 comment added Kevin B There are certainly dozens of meta posts where users falsely believed that popup was telling them commenting was necessary after downvoting, and using that as a basis for complaining about people not following it.
May 26, 2022 at 16:09 comment added user5349916 @Makoto "that the community is actively discouraging" I disagree with that assessment. "you don't have to" and "you should not" are completely different things. As far as I can tell, expecting a comment is discouraged but not leaving a comment. "you'll get someone just commenting with whatever they can get out of slamming their palm on the keyboard to pacify this message." I also disagree with that. It's no problem at all to mentally dismiss the message, especially if one considers to leave a comment and still decides against it.
May 26, 2022 at 15:59 comment added Makoto @MisterMiyagi: The system is making a suggestion to us that the community is actively discouraging. That's really the long and the short of it, and I believe that the system needs to get on the same page with the community here. Otherwise, you'll get someone just commenting with whatever they can get out of slamming their palm on the keyboard to pacify this message.
May 26, 2022 at 15:55 comment added user5349916 @Makoto I'm well aware that comments can be received negatively, but I think there's an important difference between comments thus being not required versus not recommended. Considering to add a comment still leaves room to decide against it.
May 26, 2022 at 15:26 comment added Makoto @MisterMiyagi: I'm laconically rephrasing what was already said about comments on downvotes, with a lot more terseness.
May 26, 2022 at 12:57 comment added user5349916 This feels like the entirely wrong guidance to me. The very largest bulk of my comments-on-downvoted-content do not result in recipients lashing out or making me a pin cushion; this narrative feels to me as seriously overblown. Rather, knowing that a good deal of downvotes-without-suggestions are because I am seen as a potentially vile and vengeful being is disheartening. This kind of guidance that harms those trying to improve while protecting the actually harmful actors feels extremely toxic. When even guidance to consider a comment is too much, something is very, very wrong...
May 26, 2022 at 8:43 comment added S. Dre In fact, I have indeed seen people commenting on an upvote when they are surprised by a nice behaviour or code practice etc. enough to comment on it. In the case of downvotes, if the question is obviously horrendous, then I wouldn't bother commenting on it either.
May 26, 2022 at 8:35 comment added S. Dre In general, an upvote is issued when the question is good as it is. I think you can basically take from them that it is useful etc. and no critical changes are needed. Not all downvotes need an explanation though, but it is fairly useful in a lot of cases. Specially when there is something wrong with it aside from not being useful in the platform.
May 26, 2022 at 7:41 comment added Cody Gray Mod Do you feel that explaining an upvote also helps a lot, @S.Dre? How do you know what, specifically, to keep doing, unless someone explains their upvote? The point is that feedback is useful in general. However, votes are not meant to be feedback to the poster (although they are feedback to others, in that they rank the accuracy, usefulness, and interestingness of the post); if someone wants to leave feedback for the author of a post, they can and will post a comment. Upvotes and downvotes can be interpreted as feedback by the author, but only in a limited/obvious sense—see the tooltip.
May 26, 2022 at 6:53 comment added S. Dre I think that explaining a downvote helps a lot when you try to improve your participation in this community, and also helps other people in finding these explanations in a natural way. If some users lash out against downvoters, maybe those are users we simply don't want here and the solution goes through getting rid of them. As we say in Spain, this makes the righteous pay for the sinners.
May 26, 2022 at 6:24 comment added Cody Gray Mod Feedback can, indeed, be helpful, and there shouldn't be any discouragement to users who want to provide it, but it shouldn't be in any way connected to votes, and the message is doing a disservice by implying that there should be a relationship.
May 26, 2022 at 6:15 comment added Ryan M Mod It does say "Please consider"...feedback can be helpful, and in the majority of cases, it's well-received. Unfortunately, it's the few bad apples who respond poorly that have ruined it for everyone else.
May 26, 2022 at 3:43 history answered Makoto CC BY-SA 4.0