Timeline for Is "I'm voting to close this question because it doesn't show any attempt or work" a valid custom close reason? [duplicate]
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
69 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Apr 20, 2022 at 17:09 | comment | added | Kevin B | There's no question that providing an individualised answer to each and every question is the best way to help each and every OP, however, that misses helping those who aren't asking at all and instead are just searching, who will inevitably land on the most commonly viewed/targeted Q&A pair. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 17:05 | comment | added | Kevin B | If the common frequently used dupe target is missing a more modern answer or an answer more targeted at newer users, the solution is to add an answer there, rather than trying to create a new canonical. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 17:00 | comment | added | jfriend00 | @MisterMiyagi - My only point is that there are examples of people prioritizing curation over helping and I think that's a problem when that happens. I NEVER said that all curation is bad. I just think some people get caught up in their zeal to curate and end up doing things that aren't actually good for users or the site. I see this many times a day. It's particularly common among questions by newish users and perhaps the staging ground will offer some help there (though I have my doubts). It's also common among closing as a dup where the dup doesn't actually help the OP enough. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 16:54 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jfriend00 Citing more anecdotes isn't going to change things – I already know that misuse and abuse happens in the name of curation, and I already think it's bad. Similarly, I already know that misuse and abuse happens in the name of answering, and I already think it's bad. But if you keep on painting this as "us versus them", as "helping versus curation" – well, then I'm not on your side, no matter if I wanted to. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 16:24 | history | duplicates list edited | Ryan MMod | duplicates list edited from Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand?, Question Close Reasons - Definitions and Guidance to Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand?, Question Close Reasons - Definitions and Guidance | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 15:58 | comment | added | 0Valt | @KevinB I went for the pedantic route of finishing the reopen since it already had 2 reopen votes on it (so it was just a matter of time) and started reclose procedure for a dupe closure. Although given that the question has 0 value for the Q&A indeed, I am feeling like we collectively wasted too much time on it. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 15:53 | comment | added | Kevin B | In this specific case, the linked question would not act as a useful sign post. Its title is the same. That doesn't excuse the incorrect closure, but it is an example of one worth deleting. Given it's worth deleting, i'd hesitate to reopen it and reclose it as a dupe, as then it won't be deleted without interaction from high rep users. The OP clearly has already been helped. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 15:49 | comment | added | Kevin B | If only there was a way to remedy that problem | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 15:45 | history | duplicates list edited | EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine | duplicates list edited from Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand? to Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand?, Question Close Reasons - Definitions and Guidance | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 15:44 | comment | added | jfriend00 | @MisterMiyagi - Here's one example from a couple days ago: stackoverflow.com/questions/71905980/…. My conclusion was that was closed for the wrong reason. It should be a duplicate, not a "needs details", but the alarm bells went off when a high rep user who closed it said in a comment: "Didn't seem like a useful question to have around". That is clearly a reference to closing it purely for long term curation reasons. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 15:43 | comment | added | jfriend00 | @MisterMiyagi - There are high rep users who spend a fair amount of effort curating new posts (closing them for one reason or another). Sometimes those efforts are helpful to the OP (closing as a relevant dup that provides a solution to the OP). Sometimes those efforts are not helpful at all to the OP (closing for the wrong reason or closing as a dup of something that does not help the OP). I've seen more of the latter lately than I used to. Something seems amiss in this trend. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 14:58 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jfriend00 See, I'm having a hard time processing many of your recent comments. For example, your comment complains about incorrect dupe closure – something I can fully get behind as being bad. But then it attributes that to curation, and suddenly it is about a general issue of curation versus helping. Bad (duplicate) closure is neither curation nor helping. If you want to call out misuse or even abuse, please do so – but please do not equate it to curation, painting actual helpful curation efforts in a bad light by association. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 14:31 | comment | added | jfriend00 | @MisterMiyagi - I didn't argue for an extreme either way. But, the balance has tipped the wrong way. A LOT of questions are getting slammed closed and recklessly marked as a dup (in the interest of curation) that does NOT help the OP, does not answer what they were trying to ask. That obviously isn't helping the OP and doesn't help SO either. The pendulum has swung too far the other way. It's out of balance and the effort is mostly by high rep users that are emphasizing curation over helping people. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 12:00 | comment | added | 0Valt | @jabaa 0-effort has never been a valid close reason, period. Vote to reopen any closed as such provided it does not fall under standard close reasons. "no effort", though, is often indicative of a given post being closeable for other, valid, close reasons such as being a dupe (as no research comes hand in hand with duplication). I heavily edited the question you linked to remove trigger phrases, and it was, indeed, reopened via the standard procedure. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 8:28 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jfriend00 Neither extreme is a good one. There are many of us that get helped by existing questions. Growth first with curation an afterthought makes it increasingly difficult to use Stack Overflow as a Q&A repository. Merely focusing on the vocal question askers as "helping people" leaves out a significant part of people that are here to find helped and offer help as well. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 7:18 | comment | added | jabaa | @jfriend00 Yes, that's the reason I answered stackoverflow.com/questions/71925875/… and voted to reopen. I just want to understand the correct behavior and some users think, this question should be closed and even tried to explain the close reasons to me. TBH I don't get it, but I'll try to go with VLAZ's comment. If I can answer it, I'll answer it. If it's answerable, I'll vote to reopen, even with zero-effort. | |
Apr 20, 2022 at 2:49 | comment | added | jfriend00 | @jabaa - But, the fuel that drives creating a long term, useful repository of Q/A is that people come here with questions and they get helped. If that breaks, the whole tower falls down and SO becomes a historical reference without a lot of new participants. So, the site needs to never swing so far in favor of the value of the long term repository. The fuel for growth is new users asking new (to them) questions. Nothing should break that. There's definitely a shift happening in that direction now. Curating can't become more important than actually helping people solve their problems. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 20:13 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa I fully agree with reopening the edited question. Please do not overinterpret what can be said in a comment thread that has trailed off so far from where it started. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 20:10 | comment | added | 0Valt | @jabaa although I am not casting doubt on the competency of users involved, I have to note that neither metric is an indicator of expertise on site governance. We have plenty of high-rep 10+ years users who do not have the slightest clue about how the network works. Additionally, closure always judgment calls, so there is bound to be at least some disagreement - that does not mean there is no community consensus. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 20:02 | comment | added | jabaa | Alone in this comment section I can see multiple users with very high reputation and many years of experience on Stack Overflow with very different opinions. How could some tell me, there is a consence or a guideline how to handle, if even these users don't agree? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 19:52 | comment | added | jabaa | @MisterMiyagi The goal of Stack Overflow is not to help one individual. It's to collect all possible specific technical problems and solutions to help future users with the same problem. The question is clear, focused and answerable. No reason to close. It was already reopened, but this behavior proves how confusing the close reasons are. People use different reasons to close zero-effort questions. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 18:41 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa And because it is so simple and not at all complex, they still needed you to change their entire code for them? Yes, your answer is short and focused but it doesn't seem to satisfy their question. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 16:19 | comment | added | jabaa |
@MisterMiyagi The logic is that Math.max(i - 1, 0) replaces the negative value with a 0. I don't understand, why this would be too complex to answer. I didn't skip it. It's just so simple. I daily see much more complex questions and answers on Stack Overflow.
|
|
Apr 19, 2022 at 16:17 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa The question was explicitly asking to "please explain the logic along with the syntax involved". You are the one assuming that this can be skipped. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 16:09 | comment | added | jabaa | @MisterMiyagi Isn't the goal of this platform to help future users with similar problems? Isn't the title, the description and the code in the question clear and focused enough, to 1) answer the question and 2) help future users with a similar problem? Doesn't the answer help future users? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 15:58 | comment | added | jabaa | @MisterMiyagi So you're assuming, that the OP doesn't understand the code in their own question, because it's a basic problem for you, and that's a correct close reason? But closing because of zero-effort is not correct? So, according to this, most basic questions can be closed, because we can assume, that we would have to explain the whole language basics? The OP asked a clear, focused and answerable question and you would close because of some assumptions. Couldn't you use this close reason with this unsubstantiated assumptions for almost all questions? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 15:43 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa And why exactly do you assume they understood everything they used? It's not exactly uncommon for people to work with cargo cult code and use Stack Overflow to incrementally crawl along. If they already knew everything they are asking for, they wouldn't be asking about it, would they? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 15:24 | comment | added | jabaa |
@MisterMiyagi The OP already knows and uses the assignment operator and knows how to define and use functions. I don't need anything in my answer that the OP doesn't already use. It's enough to call one function Math.max and assign the result to i . The OP already knows how to do this. I don't have to explain anything new.
|
|
Apr 19, 2022 at 15:20 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa The problem is to explain the entire logic and syntax when the OP apparently doesn't know the most basic language elements. Saying "if the result is negative, set it to 0" doesn't do that, so it is pretty irrelevant that this would be a simple answer. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 14:46 | comment | added | jabaa | @MisterMiyagi Are you serious? The logic to keep the result of a decrement function non-negative is a huge scope? Saying, "if the result is negative, set it to 0" is to much or not answering the question? What more basics do you need to write a correct answer? | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 14:13 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa "please explain the logic along with the syntax involved" seems like a huge scope. The OP apparently doesn't even seem to know how to do a basic value check (else the question wouldn't be there), so a proper answer would have to dig into the absolute basics and explain things from the ground up. That's far, far more than "one single line". | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 13:47 | comment | added | jabaa | Why is this question closed: stackoverflow.com/questions/71925875/… How is it lacking focus? The focus is very clear on one single problem, that can be solved in one single line. Obviously, this question was closed because of zero-effort, but lacking focus was used as the close reason. | |
Apr 19, 2022 at 9:39 | comment | added | Gimby | You can flip this question on its back. When is it a good idea to cast a custom close vote? In my experience: for corner cases that are definitely bad but won't happen too often. "Not enough effort" is so common that it would be a close reason that is just in the list. But it isn't. Hint hint. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 18:41 | comment | added | BSMP | "But I'm not a brand new user..." This is my point: the tour wasn't written for experienced users looking for detailed close vote guidance. That's not what it's for. It's like you're looking at the Quick Start guide for an electronic device for instructions for how to mod it. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 12:46 | comment | added | user5349916 | FWIW, it certainly doesn't help that the question as presented is just a dump of an exercise description. It lacks an actual question, which is certainly a lack of a significant detail. Whether one wants to be that literal, well... | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 12:33 | comment | added | user5349916 | @jabaa Only debugging questions need debugging details. The question is on-topic, albeit not exactly well asked; I've seen pretty much the same question for Python. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 11:35 | comment | added | jabaa | On the other side, doesn't this close reason contain zero-effort questions: "Needs debugging details The question should be updated to include desired behavior, a specific problem or error, and the shortest code necessary to reproduce the problem." Questions without any code could be closed with "Needs debugging details" | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 11:28 | comment | added | jabaa | I think this is also a good exmple: stackoverflow.com/questions/71911078/… The "question"/task is absolutely clear and not really too broad. Maybe there is a duplicate, but maybe not. It already has two close votes. Why? According to the comments in this question("Is it answerable and is it on-topic? If yes - do not close it (except if it's a duplicate)"), it's a valid (but bad) question. It can be answered, it's a programming question, and I'm able to answer it. I can downvote, but not vote to close. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 2:02 | comment | added | jfriend00 | [cont'd]. No wonder SO has a crummy reputation with people new to the site when so many questions get closed for bogus reasons. It feels like "cleaning up the site of un-clever questions" is given a much higher priority than actually helping people who post. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 2:01 | comment | added | jfriend00 | As a side note, I was looking for examples of this by searching recent closed questions. Wow, what a lot of junk reasons for closing questions. This community is horrible at closing questions for (needs details or clarity) that are not difficult to understand and answer and no duplicate has been shown. I don't have to look very long and they are easy to find. I also see lots of questions being marked a duplicate where the duplicate does not contain what would be considered a good or modern answer. In all these cases, I don't see how closing the question is helping the OP or helping SO. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 1:55 | comment | added | jfriend00 | @RyanM - That's a bit hard to search for, but maybe I could accumulate ones I see over the next week. Here's one closed today that isn't a great example for the stated reason of "needs details", but the question actually seems very clear to me as "please explain each line of Javascript" in this page. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 1:10 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | @jfriend00 Examples of this might be helpful. Generally, we try to encourage questions that could conceivably be applicable to someone else in the future. Requiring problem-solving effort in the question is often counterproductive to this goal. For example, we have a few questions that have turned into a canonical, highly voted question, where the top answer basically says "you made a typo here, here's the correct code," - focusing on the specific incorrect attempt. The question would have been so much better without the attempt, allowing answerers to suggest the best way to do it. | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 1:05 | comment | added | jfriend00 | So, I'm feeling kind of stunned by this as I don't think it's the way that SO generally works. Questions just asking us to write code for them that show no effort to solve it themselves, but do clearly show the problem to be solved are just fine? A classic question (which we seem many times a week) is I have this input data structure and I want to change it to this output data structure. Throw in a few special circumstances that make it so there's no duplicate that really illustrates how to write this code. So, that's just fine and dandy on SO? | |
Apr 18, 2022 at 0:44 | history | duplicates list edited | Ryan MMod | duplicates list edited from Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand? to Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand? | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 15:09 | comment | added | nbk | Close it for lack of focus , that would be true and is valid | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 14:51 | history | duplicates list edited | EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine | duplicates list edited from Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand? to Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, How much research effort is expected of Stack Overflow users?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand? | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 9:16 | comment | added | VLAZ | A real easy way to find out if something is closable: Is it answerable and is it on-topic? If yes - do not close it (except if it's a duplicate). If no - then you can vote to close it. Anything else is irrelevant. SO does not have a "code tax". You don't have to pay "one code" to get "one answer". If it's unclear because there is no code provided, then vote "Needs details or clarity" or "Lacks debugging details". Some times "Needs more focus" might also be appropriate. If the question is clear without code then the choose this from the close dialog | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 6:08 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | I agree. It's quite new; hopefully we'll be able to get it linked from more places in the future. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 6:07 | comment | added | jabaa | @RyanM It's not trivial to find. It could be more prominent, e.g. in the help center. But it answers my question. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 6:03 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | For guidance on custom reasons, please see the new guidance we've just released here. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 5:48 | comment | added | jabaa | @CodyGray Yes, there is a list of close vote reasons, but it doesn't contain valid reasons for a custom close vote. The tour lists questions without attempt or work as bad that may be closed. stackoverflow.com/help/closed-questions describes a custom close vote reason that can be used when other reasons don't fit. Some user say, it's okay to close questions that don't show work. You have to admit, that's confusing. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 4:43 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | The tour doesn't set out close-vote reasons. It provides guidelines on how to ask a good, high-quality question. The close-vote reasons are documented here: stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic and stackoverflow.com/help/closed-questions | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 2:57 | comment | added | jabaa | @BSMP The second point is correct. It's about asking a question and not closing one. But I'm not a brand new user and I'm still reading the tour to check which questions can be asked and which can't. At least to me it's confusing that the tour states that these questions may be closed but some users say something contradicting. And even in meta you can find different opinions. Who are the official users with official answers? | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 2:49 | comment | added | BSMP | That interpretation doesn't make sense in context. 1) The tour is for brand new users who wouldn't have close vote privileges (at most they'd have 101 rep from the association bonus). 2) That section is clearly talking about asking questions, not moderating them. It's telling someone who's thinking about asking a question that it might get closed. It's not telling a brand new user that they're free to vote to close. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 2:28 | comment | added | jabaa | @BSMP But I understand it as I'm free to vote to close because of this reasons. Isn't that at least one possible, grammatically correct interpretation of this two sentences? | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 2:17 | comment | added | BSMP | It's not a contradiction to say that it may be closed because that only means that it might be closed. The tour is not promising that all questions without an attempt will be closed. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 1:10 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | If they are unclear due to lack of effort, yes, they can be closed as Needs details or clarity. However, if they're clear but simply lack problem-solving effort, they cannot. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:56 | comment | added | jabaa | In one duplicate I see Or "unclear where exactly you are stuck" In that case, "no effort" is not an official close reason but questions showing no effort can be closed with "Needs details or clarity" | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:53 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | Kind of, yeah. I'd be interested in hearing better phrasing suggestions. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:52 | comment | added | jabaa | @RyanM Why isn't the tour updated in that case? Isn't it contradicting? The tour clearly states that a question without any attempt or work may be closed. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:52 | comment | added | Ivar | And personally I'd say, keep it in the tour. It still can shield you from some down votes and might make an otherwise unclear question more clear. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:51 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | The short answer is "No, you should not vote to close due to lack of effort or attempt." The only effort we require is the effort to write a clear, focused problem that's not a duplicate. And if it's a duplicate, you need to close it as a duplicate, not due to lack of effort. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:49 | comment | added | jabaa | @Ivar The second answer contains "In general, if a question really doesn't show any effort and is just soliciting opinions or guidance, that's likely too broad. [...] If an asker wants to make it clear that they have code and that they have a problem, then the problem needs to be self-contained. If it isn't, then you can close it for that applicable reason." | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:49 | history | closed |
Ivar Ryan MMod |
Duplicate of Do we need a close reason for zero-effort questions?, Question Effort - What's our line in the sand? | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:48 | comment | added | Ivar | Shog at the time of writing was still a CM IIRC. So I'd say it has some weight. But regardless, the question on whether "no effort" is a valid close reason has been discussed plenty of times before. The outcome is usually the same. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:47 | history | edited | jabaa | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 323 characters in body
|
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:39 | comment | added | jabaa | @Ivar Not really, because it doesn't describe the importance of the tour and if it should be corrected. And the link contains opinions of individuals, not global guidelines. And even in this one link the opinions are contradicting. I can find answers supporting my point. | |
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:31 | history | edited | jabaa | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
edited tags
|
Apr 17, 2022 at 0:26 | history | asked | jabaa | CC BY-SA 4.0 |