Skip to main content
22 events
when toggle format what by license comment
Apr 5, 2022 at 22:54 comment added jpmc26 @TylerH "If users disagree something is a duplicate after spending time on it, that's fine, because they're in a better position to know that." As I described, very little of the time they spend will be in evaluating the potential duplicate, so no, they very often won't be in a better position to determine that. Think about it in terms of cost/benefit. After you've already paid the cost of writing the question, is the payoff likely to be higher to pay the additional cost of reading a suggested dupe or of posting anyway and hoping someone will hand you answer on a silver platter?
Apr 5, 2022 at 21:15 comment added TylerH @jpmc26 If users disagree something is a duplicate after spending time on it, that's fine, because they're in a better position to know that. They're also still going to end up getting their question closed as a duplicate if their wrong (if enough users see it in time). It also ...doesn't matter... if new users are aware that their efforts are good practice for researching a problem; they're still doing the work. Have you ever seen Karate Kid? I agree on the guidance to use an actual search engine; that should be prominent wherever advice is given in the process.
Apr 5, 2022 at 18:52 comment added jpmc26 @TylerH One more thing: "And you should think of the time spent formulating the question as 'research effort' rather than 'wasted time' since you seem hung up on that." I do, but most of the users who the wizard is targeting won't. The wizard isn't designed for SO veterans who are already dedicated to question quality and have the experience and mindset required to be willing to throw away an entire question after having written it. It's targeted to people who care a little bit about writing a decent question but who don't understand what SO was built to do or how to research practically.
Apr 5, 2022 at 18:44 comment added jpmc26 @TylerH As for the quality of SO's search, the solution to that is a better search. The Wizard has already resulted in the search considering tags, so that's a sign we can hope for more improvement in the future. We might also want to advocate for some guidance to use an actual search engine in addition to SO's built in search, or maybe even the direct inclusion of some results from one as part of the wizard.
Apr 5, 2022 at 18:43 comment added jpmc26 @TylerH I don't think so. After spending that much effort on a question, the user is highly likely to convince themselves it's not a duplicate even when it is. They're also not going to want to spend much time examining the suggested questions for solutions. Furthermore, the specifics they flushed out while writing the question will give them more reasons to consider it dissimilar, resulting in even greater frustration if it does get closed as a dupe. The best time to point them elsewhere is before they've sunk much time into writing the question, when they'll be more willing to read.
Apr 5, 2022 at 16:40 comment added TylerH @jpmc26 Here is the outcome you would get: users spend more time practicing/working on crafting a good question. The site gets fewer dupes posted, or at worst, the same amount. It is win/win, or at the very least win/no-change. The negative reinforcement of "there's already a question that covers that?!" after writing up a question serves as a double whammy to put more effort into the process before clicking "submit" on a question, which is the whole point of any effort like an ask question wizard or a staging ground, etc: to make sure questions that get posted on the site are better
Apr 5, 2022 at 16:34 comment added TylerH @jpmc26 because people post questions they shouldn't right now and it's a big problem, because when they are dupes they either ignore the duplicate finder right now (or it just doesn't find the duplicates). If we force them to put effort into their question first, it will lead to a better title, which will mean the duplicate finder has a better chance of working. And you should think of the time spent formulating the question as 'research effort' rather than 'wasted time' since you seem hung up on that.
Apr 5, 2022 at 6:07 comment added jpmc26 @TylerH What are you talking about? The result of attachment and sunk cost fallacy is people posting garbage questions that have been asked a hundred times before. This is because they wrote the question before they searched much for an answer, and the wizard in no way forces (or even encourages as far as I can tell) doing your own research beforehand. How is people posting questions they shouldn't a net positive for anyone, particularly when it can be averted?
Apr 4, 2022 at 20:35 comment added TylerH @jpmc26 Yes, and I'm saying that attachment and sunk cost is a feature. If the stack overflow search (which is notoriously bad) can find a duplicate of your question, chances are you should have searched for it harder before typing up your question. There are some users who ask well-researched questions when joining the site, but overwhelmingly that is not the case. Forcing the users who have asked well-researched questions to look through a few potential duplicates that don't apply is a great price to pay for teaching new users the hard-ish way that they need to do more research.
Apr 3, 2022 at 10:45 comment added jpmc26 @JörgWMittag But writing an SO question is not like writing an essay or article. Essays and articles attempt to answer some question. Writing an SO question is comparable to a step that is not even explicitly captured in the final version of the essay: the formulation of the question or problem before the essay is even started. At most, writing a question encompasses part of the research phase, where you learn more about the problem beforehand, and having the title and tags early allows SO itself to better assist in that research process before the user spends a lot of time writing.
Apr 3, 2022 at 10:33 comment added jpmc26 Ian's point is that the problem with putting the title and tags after the question body is that then the user has written an entire question before the system has a summary to search for a duplicate by, leading to attachment and sunk cost fallacy. Maybe there's a compromise here. What if the wizard forced the user to look over their title again after writing the question? Sure, a lot of users wouldn't bother rethinking it, but those users aren't interested in writing a good question anyway. Those that are actually trying would get a gentle reminder after having flushed out the question.
Mar 25, 2022 at 14:49 comment added TylerH @Ian I'd rather have better titles and more accurate duplicate searches than give users warm fuzzy feelings about their questions.
Mar 25, 2022 at 7:58 comment added Beth Ideally, you want to intervene early. The more time a person spends composing their question, the more they feel it's unique and special and totally not a duplicate.
Mar 22, 2022 at 18:02 comment added TylerH @user692942 I posit that a little bit of infuriating of such users is exactly what's in order. If we can hit every first-time asker with one instance of "seriously, this question has already been asked?!" think how quickly the duplicate question rate will drop. And like John says, this will lead to far better titles, which I consider another win.
Mar 22, 2022 at 17:26 comment added John Kugelman I'll accept that drawback when the upside is better titles. Prompting for the body and tags first ought to greatly reduce people's tendencies to shove their first sentence and language tags into the title field. Not to mention, better titles will make dupe searching more reliable. The dupe searcher has no hope with a title like, "Hey guys first time poster I could use your help with this problem - Java - Ubuntu 18.04".
Mar 22, 2022 at 17:01 comment added user692942 @TylerH but most don't. So one of the purposes of the Ask wizard is to point them in that direction which if it happens after they've spent time writing out the body of the question is going to infuriate them.
Mar 22, 2022 at 13:46 comment added TylerH @user692942 Yes, absolutely. They should have searched for an existing solution before spending time writing a question. A user finding out there is an existing question already after spending time writing up a question will be a valuable lesson on doing some research ahead of time. Given the in-site search is horrible at finding duplicates compared to, say, Google, we don't want them to rely on it any more than they have to.
Mar 22, 2022 at 10:16 comment added user692942 So you're expecting the users to write the body before entering the title to then find out it's a duplicate? For me, @Dalija's answer makes more sense, move tags up below the title.
Mar 22, 2022 at 7:43 comment added Yaakov Ellis StaffMod This is something that we would consider for a future iteration on the wizard, but it wont go into the current version being tested.
Mar 21, 2022 at 21:44 comment added 0Valt @JörgWMittag tags would fit into the "keywords" category when you submit an academic paper. Ironically enough, they are the only ones that break the narrative as the advice used to be to add them after the abstract. That said, scientific journals don't usually have systems for "duplicate" submissions :)
Mar 21, 2022 at 21:39 comment added Jörg W Mittag Agreed. I was taught in school from 4th grade on that you should write essays in the order: main body, conclusion, introduction, then title last. In university, I was taught to write papers in the order: main body, conclusion, abstract, then title last. When I started first using the Internet in the mid-90s, I was taught to write emails in the order: main body, conclusion, abstract, then subject last. And I believe I am not the only one, this seems to be pretty much the universal advice on good (technical) writing. Not sure where tags would fit in, but probably second-to-last.
Mar 21, 2022 at 16:14 history answered TylerH CC BY-SA 4.0