Timeline for Please scrap the highly-problematic "how are we doing" survey
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
65 events
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Nov 25, 2023 at 15:45 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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May 24, 2022 at 21:22 | comment | added | Andrew Grimm | Stack Exchange has previously described “ Hispanic or Latino/Latina” as a “racial background”, and I noted that that the US census refers to it as an ethnicity, in a 2019 post meta.stackexchange.com/questions/339467/… | |
May 19, 2022 at 14:31 | answer | added | Marco Bonelli | timeline score: 7 | |
Feb 12, 2022 at 19:32 | history | edited | pppery |
Removed unneeded new single-question tag
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Feb 5, 2022 at 12:00 | history | reopened |
gnat Robert Longson Frédéric Hamidi double-beep Gino Mempin |
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Feb 5, 2022 at 9:10 | review | Reopen votes | |||
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Feb 5, 2022 at 9:05 | history | closed |
bad_coder customcommander il_raffa JMP undetected Selenium |
Opinion-based | |
Feb 5, 2022 at 3:09 | review | Close votes | |||
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Feb 4, 2022 at 22:41 | comment | added | Kevin B | @MattK and we're asking them to explain that, ;) | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 21:58 | comment | added | Matt K | @einpoklum Not really. I think you cannot get past the misleading title. To me, the survey read more like they are researching why users may be hesitant to ask a question (re: unwelcoming community), and if there is there a demographic of users that may be encountering these obstacles of entry into the community more than another demographic. | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 20:36 | comment | added | einpoklum | @MattK: Putting that aside for a moment... I take it you agree with the rest of my criticism of the survey? | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 20:06 | comment | added | Kevin B | Yes, you can find information for many companies/organizations explaining why they collect certain kinds of data in surveys... except this one | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 20:04 | comment | added | Matt K | @einpoklum That was the first search result of many that I found. You can also perform an internet search to find such information not directly related to a census bureau survey. | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 19:41 | comment | added | einpoklum | @MattK: StackOverflow is not a census bureau. National census bureaus ask about many aspects of the surveyed people's lives and background, and the context of such surveys is different. They are not "how are we doing" surveys. | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 19:32 | comment | added | Matt K | @l4mpi I guess try an internet search if you are unaware of a fairly well known practice? census.gov/acs/www/about/why-we-ask-each-question/race smartsurvey.co.uk/survey-questions/demographics/… | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 9:47 | comment | added | l4mpi | @MattK if the intent is "fairly well known", then please spell it out for me for this specific survey and question, because I honestly have no idea. Especially when it's so broad as to not even be usable for basic demographics (e.g. a black person born and living in the US, whose family lived there for 150 years, is supposed to check the same box as someone who shares their skin colour but was born and lives in an african country like Tanzania or Sudan). | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 8:14 | answer | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | timeline score: 2 | |
Feb 4, 2022 at 0:16 | comment | added | Dan Mašek | @richardec I'm aware of that. That's kind of the point -- all we get here from people above the mere user level is mods trying to do their job. This is something a representative of the corporation ought to address,and there's no sight of that happening. Not even a comment AFAICT. | |
Feb 3, 2022 at 23:50 | comment | added | user17242583 | @Dan the mods are basically nothing more than extra-powerful community members. They have nothing to do with SE staff, so "other than some periodic cleanups of comments done by the mods" is not really correct. | |
Feb 3, 2022 at 23:38 | comment | added | Dan Mašek |
Hmm, so it's been a week, the score is +312, and other than some periodic cleanups of comments done by the mods, the official response seems to be nil . I guess that says it all. :(
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Feb 3, 2022 at 18:50 | comment | added | Matt K | @l4mpi The intent behind asking for race in a community survey is a fairly well known and common practice. | |
Feb 3, 2022 at 12:18 | comment | added | l4mpi | @einpoklum yeah, it's a whole different can of worms and far from optimal, but would at least be more rooted in facts than vague stuff like "white or european" (apparently from a US perspective, europe is not just a country but also a race /facepalm). "In which country did you grow up" would probably be a less-bad question, but that has its own issues as well. But again, without knowing the intent behind the question it's hard to make any recommendations except for "drop it entirely or at least pick one from these not-quite-as-bad questions". | |
Feb 3, 2022 at 11:47 | comment | added | einpoklum | @l4mpi: But then you'd get people saying "Nationality, or citizenship? I'm Irish but a British citizen; I'm Palestinian but a citizen of Israel; I'm Arab and don't recognize the despotic monarchies as nations" etc. | |
Feb 3, 2022 at 10:13 | comment | added | l4mpi | @MattK as einpoklum said, it's not my survey so it's not my job to make sure it's not garbage. And at this point I've basically given up all hope for meaninful change at SO, I just point at the garbage and laugh. Without knowing the intent behind the question I cannot give meaningful advice either (and I cannot think of a good reason why you would need racial demographics for a technical website about programming), but for starters I would drop outright BS like "middle eastern" and potentially replace the question with one asking for nationality instead if scrapping it is not an option. | |
Feb 2, 2022 at 20:06 | comment | added | einpoklum | @MattK: It's inappropriate to ask l4mpi for that. Anyway, a "how are we doing" survey should not ask about your race. This reminds me of my time in the Netherlands, where the obsession is with your birthdate. Every dumbest form asked for your exact birthdate. I connect to the Internet - they want my exact birthdate. I loan a bike at work - birthdate. What's it to them? ... and that's not nearly as touchy as race. | |
Feb 2, 2022 at 17:50 | comment | added | Matt K | @l4mpi Then give some examples of non-US definitions of race, or other stats that they could use for determining the demographics of the people taking the survey. Be polite, and be helpful in your feedback. Or am I mistaken and you're saying that any kind of question asking about demographics is racist and harmful? | |
Feb 2, 2022 at 11:13 | comment | added | einpoklum | @l4mpi: ... and even then, only some kinds of "welcoming" and absolutely not other kinds. | |
Feb 2, 2022 at 11:08 | comment | added | l4mpi | @MattK thing is, most people (of those who are knowledgeable about the topic) outside of the US think the US definition of race is either stupid, misleading, useless, harmful, or a combination thereof. SO always talks about being "welcoming" so including a question that's borderline insulting for some regions is interesting to say the least, unless they only care about welcoming US visitors. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 18:12 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | I do not intend to convey any particular "tone". I do intend to convey that the subject matter is extremely important to me, that I have repeatedly considered the matter over an extended period of time, and that I will stand firm in my understanding. You are correct that I will not change my mind. I do not require that you see things my way (many have tried; most have found a way to insult me), but I am happy to explain why I do. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 17:48 | comment | added | Matt K | @einpoklum That's fine others share your views, that's what voting is for. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 17:47 | comment | added | Matt K | @KarlKnechtel I'm afraid I don't see it that way and your tone of conversation leads me to believe you would not accept any other reasoning other than total acceptance of your views. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 17:07 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | Perhaps you think OP is insincere. Despite the claim of "dramatization", I believe that OP is legitimately concerned about this, and legitimately does see the approach as, in a very meaningful sense, racist. I know that I do see it that way - with very firm conviction. This is not some Republican-party gotcha. This is me being dismayed at a continuing (over a decade now by my reckoning) attack on the core principles of liberalism. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 17:02 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel |
@MattK the "US-political racist boxes" demonstrably take their racial categories from American politics, and asking in this way obviously and clearly has racist consequences which are detailed in the OP. If you're unclear on it, though, I'd be happy to explain in more detail in the chatroom. Starting with a proper definition of racism , not the one that self-styled "anti-racist" (hint: they are racist) activists in the US (and unfortunately also leaking into Canada and possibly other places) seek to substitute.
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Jan 31, 2022 at 15:27 | comment | added | einpoklum | @MattK: 1. See my last comment. 2. I believe you're conflating resentment and hate. 3. It appears the sentiments expressed in this post are shared - at least to the extent of upvoting - by a large fraction of people on MSO. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 15:18 | comment | added | Matt K | This questions feels so overly dramatic and spewing with hatred for Stack Overflow management that I did not make it through reading the whole thing. I stopped at "your US-political racist boxes". | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 8:49 | comment | added | einpoklum | @TravisJ: I "dramatized" the rhetoric to better communicate the impact of the survey. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 5:10 | comment | added | Travis J | Mods: Leave this question open! Also mods: deletes every comment and answer..... Come on, let's face it, this type of heated rhetoric has no place here. While the title is polite, the content is written like a tabloid. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 2:01 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @StephenRauch I may not have made that clear, but I was only referring to the most recent deletion (comments deleted in the last ~5 hours). But maybe I just consider each set of deletions to be slightly more independent than mods think of them. Still, a comment justifying the deletion (and dissuading further comments) would be more transparent. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 1:38 | comment | added | Stephen Rauch Mod | @BernhardBarker, There are currently over 100 deleted comments on this post, most of which got moved to chat. Those comments were deleted by three different moderators. I locked the post after the move to chat, when the comments kept coming and the other two moderator had needed to step in, and then yet another comment flag came up. | |
Jan 31, 2022 at 1:02 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | @Undo I seems like many comments have been deleted (and not moved to chat). Did you delete them? I thought the semi-official policy on Meta is to generally leave comments alone unless they're off topic or borderline offensive (or there's like 50-100+ of them)? If nothing else, a comment noting the deletion would've gone a long way. As far as I could tell, the post was only locked earlier because of an interaction between 2 people (a lock doesn't seem like the best solution to that, but I digress), while many other comments were generally on topic, but I can't double-check, so maybe I'm wrong. | |
S Jan 31, 2022 at 0:42 | history | notice removed | CommunityBot | ||
S Jan 31, 2022 at 0:42 | history | unlocked | CommunityBot | ||
Jan 30, 2022 at 21:25 | comment | added | Undo Mod | People: Most things on meta are opinion based. We don't close them, and we shouldn't close this either. | |
Jan 30, 2022 at 11:29 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 30, 2022 at 0:46 | history | edited | manassehkatz-Moving 2 Codidact | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Expanded "Middle East" definition
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S Jan 30, 2022 at 0:42 | history | notice added | Stephen RauchMod | Comments only | |
S Jan 30, 2022 at 0:42 | history | locked | Stephen RauchMod | ||
Jan 28, 2022 at 23:41 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 28, 2022 at 18:35 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 28, 2022 at 18:33 | review | Close votes | |||
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Jan 28, 2022 at 16:37 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 28, 2022 at 16:36 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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S Jan 28, 2022 at 13:56 | history | mod moved comments to chat | |||
S Jan 28, 2022 at 13:56 | comment | added | Stephen Rauch Mod | An extensive conversation about the welcoming campaign has been moved to chat. | |
Jan 28, 2022 at 12:06 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 28, 2022 at 11:52 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 28, 2022 at 0:25 | history | became hot meta post | |||
Jan 28, 2022 at 0:23 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Active reading [<http://stackoverflow.com/legal/trademark-guidance> (the last section)].
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Jan 27, 2022 at 22:40 | comment | added | Kevin B | it's so that they can make sure they get a response from certain smaller groups that otherwise would rarely end up being randomly picked. That however also leads to the survey not being a representation of the actual userbase overall, more, data representing each... "group." | |
Jan 27, 2022 at 22:37 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | I can never understand why people are asking about my race. I care so little about that in my part of the world that I wouldn't know how to categorize people properly. I don't have time to become a racist just to fill out a survey. It's ridiculous. | |
Jan 27, 2022 at 22:23 | comment | added | Camilo Terevinto | If scrapping the survey is "not an option", at least please consider a complete rewrite. I almost felt offended by taking that survey, even when I chose that I would not give me ethical background (I don't understand how my background would matter if the survey is about SE, not me). | |
Jan 27, 2022 at 22:07 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 27, 2022 at 22:03 | comment | added | Kevin B | Not necessarily a dupe, but there was another recent post here discussing the contents of this survey, not that it got any response: How is the "how are we doing" survey used? | |
Jan 27, 2022 at 21:47 | history | edited | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jan 27, 2022 at 21:39 | history | asked | einpoklum | CC BY-SA 4.0 |