Timeline for Is this comment really "not nice"?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
22 events
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Sep 6, 2021 at 7:39 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Clockwork You could look at it that way, but I think that framing puts the emphasis on the wrong points and in some ways assumes premises that lead in the wrong direction. Yes, we should have some standard for basic courtesy. But if our goal is to aid people in improving themselves as developers, then no, "niceness" isn't a core value. It's something that often enables us to accomplish the core goals, but it's okay to put it aside as a major concern in a significant number (even if not most) of situations where a more forceful response is useful, e.g., maybe the situation in this question. | |
Sep 6, 2021 at 7:25 | comment | added | Clockwork | @jpmc26 I think I understand what you say to some extent. On one side, you're underlining the fact that decisions are being taken by people who don't actually interact on the field, for the people who are on the field, without knowing what actually is needed. On the other hand, I would agree that being nice is required but the important thing is to define what "nice" truly is. | |
Sep 6, 2021 at 4:35 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @skomisa And before you twist what I'm saying around, let me be clear that I'm not suggesting a complete lack of limits on what we should tolerate in terms of lack of courtesy. But the proper line is far away from where SO has tried to set it. | |
Sep 6, 2021 at 4:30 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @skomisa Because I want the original Stack Overflow back that wasn't dominated by left-wing identitarian radicals. And it's not terrible. That's the entire point: SO has wrongly demonized a set of behaviors that will help people write better code. Every culture reviles something, even SO's supposed radical "kindness" ideology. That's why the "welcoming" initiative is hypocrisy. What we should be reviling is doing poor work, not people who make an honest but harsh case against poor work. | |
Sep 6, 2021 at 0:29 | comment | added | skomisa | @jpmc26 Re. "Sometimes you even need to make a fool of someone to keep others from going down the same bad path.", that's a terrible mindset for anyone to have who wants to usefully contribute to Stack Overflow, and is against the CoC. If you sincerely think that way I don't understand why you want to be here at all. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 20:10 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Clockwork No. I mean that the claims of the "welcoming" extremists are false, and this is one simple example why. Being "nice" is not always the most effective way to address a problem. Sometimes you need to be blunt and tackle a bad practice or mentality head on. Sometimes you even need to make a fool of someone to keep others from going down the same bad path. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 20:08 | comment | added | Clockwork | @jpmc26 Ah, you mean historical "joke answers". Well, I read a meta-post mentioning that it's not really helpful as a reply to newcomers who don't know anything yet. Although for those who have been on the field, it's a nice reminder and a mood reliever. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 20:07 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Clockwork Apply that mentality to this answer. We'll all have lost a useful teaching tool if it goes. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 19:59 | comment | added | Clockwork | @jpmc26 How so? Serious question; I'm not participating a lot on Stack Overflow, so I might be lacking on some information (beside the fact that there's a flow of newcomers who basically use the Code of Conducts to protect themselves against quality moderation). | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 19:56 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Clockwork And that variability is one reason why this extremism is a horrible idea. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 19:55 | comment | added | Clockwork | @jpmc26 I am merely suggesting that spoken language isn't absolute and anyone can have their own interpretation; as I pointed out in another comment on another post, whether or not it's taken personally is influenced by how the person's day went. For what it's worth, since I'm beginning to "know" the asker as a member, coming from them, I wouldn't have taken it badly if I were on the receiving end. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 19:49 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Clockwork The statements as presented do not question anyone's ability. They merely state the person is not using it, which actually would typically imply they have the ability. You're the one reading a derogatory remark into it. So maybe you're the one who's inclined to think badly of people. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 19:34 | comment | added | Clockwork | @jpmc26 I mean, if you were to teach me Python (which I barely know anything about) and you told me that I don't have the slightlest clue what I'm doing, I would believe you. But then, whether or not it's helpful depends on whether or not you would tell me what I did wrong. | |
Sep 5, 2021 at 19:32 | comment | added | Clockwork | @jpmc26 There is a difference between telling the truth and being "snappish". The truth is the fact, whilst questioning someone's ability to think just because they're new and neither have your knowledge nor your experience can be counter productive. I had a teacher who, upon being told when she was young that she sucked at maths by her teacher, believed him and thought that she couldn't do maths. The same happened to many of my friends when they were being "educated" by their parents, telling them they are failures. They were never explained in what way they are "failures" (the actual facts). | |
Sep 4, 2021 at 19:22 | history | edited | jpmc26 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Sep 4, 2021 at 19:17 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @skomisa It achieves a statement of the truth when a person is failing to apply correct logic and reasoning. The truth always has value to those who will give it due consideration. | |
Sep 4, 2021 at 19:16 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @PeterMortensen Sarah Chipps was not a "third party." She was hired specifically for these values that she brought to the table. And a number of employees who stood with some level of opposition to these values were fired. I don't see any evidence that they've come back or that the social injustice tone of the site has changed. Maybe grown more quiet since the open parading of the abuses it caused led to such an uproar, but not changed. The people its advocates sought to remove are already gone; I see no way that a different set of values could have taken hold. | |
Sep 4, 2021 at 17:26 | comment | added | skomisa | Regardless of whether it's "oppressive", telling people that "they're not applying their mental faculties to the fullest" is counterproductive. It achieves absolutely nothing. | |
Sep 4, 2021 at 14:20 | comment | added | Peter Mortensen | I don't think this is true any more (the first paragraph). Some higher-up people were influenced (probably because they were played by a third party), but it has subsided. | |
Sep 4, 2021 at 13:54 | comment | added | bad_coder | Can you edit the post to include some references. | |
Sep 4, 2021 at 9:21 | history | edited | jpmc26 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Sep 4, 2021 at 9:09 | history | answered | jpmc26 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |