Timeline for Rule proposal: one delete/undelete per post
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
31 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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May 25, 2021 at 21:33 | comment | added | gnat | ...I thought okay I can't see clear explicit statement on that matter but maybe I will be able to squeeze something by digging into subtle nuances and reading between the lines. No luck there, sorry | |
May 25, 2021 at 21:26 | comment | added | gnat | @TylerH yes I paid close attention to these references and comments in prior re-check because I expected them to help me see how this proposal is supposed to be only short term | |
May 25, 2021 at 21:11 | comment | added | TylerH | @gnat Not only does Machavity's post refer to preferred long-term efforts (see "status-planned SE code changes" link in the question above), but both he and Makyen have mentioned numerous times in comment replies on this page how they prefer and are seeking changes in the system as an ideal permanent (read: "long term") solution. | |
May 25, 2021 at 19:41 | comment | added | gnat | @TylerH after you pointed this I re-checked the proposal yet again and found no trace of it being expected a short term / temporary solution. This makes me wonder why you have chosen to label my longer term concerns irrelevant. Anyway, your comment somehow didn't make me change my mind. My reading of this proposal is, it is currently presented as a long term approach and as such misses addressing relevant issues (by the way, not only of scale but also of potential to trigger more of the un/delete wars based on retaliation feelings as was discussed in prior comments) | |
May 25, 2021 at 19:14 | comment | added | TylerH | @gnat whether it will always be 'this way' or not is irrelevant (and not something I weighed in on). There is a problem now and a proposed solution for handling it now, as well as an effort underway to handle it, at scale, in the long term via a system feature. | |
May 25, 2021 at 19:01 | comment | added | gnat | @TylerH twenty thousands users may not cause problems now, but belief that it will always be this way is quite risky one. There is no way to tell if enough of them (yeah, "probably one or two dozen") will decide to join the crusade next day, and next week, and next month etc. There is no way to tell how many of them "inspired" by this featured meta post will eventually decide to start playing un/delete wars (Streisand effect). My concern is that proposed approach looks really unreliable in the long term given how many active users can be potentially involved | |
May 25, 2021 at 18:50 | comment | added | TylerH | 23,000 users aren't causing problems, only a few (probably one or two dozen). | |
May 25, 2021 at 7:13 | comment | added | gnat | well yes @Dalia, I expect this to work similar to how it currently does in close / reopen votes. Single vote limit makes close/reopen wars look so much more respectable: kind of sensible balancing to eventually settle on a broader community decision. As opposed to disgusting battles of clans in un/delete wars | |
May 25, 2021 at 6:22 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | I suspect that number of users engaged in delete/undelete wars is rather small. If you remove ability for same users to engage multiple times, at some point question will stay either deleted or undeleted. And mods can always step in and make final judgement if things get out of hand regardless of the new rule. | |
May 24, 2021 at 22:18 | comment | added | Braiam | @gnat so, are you saying that you would upvote my request for data? :) | |
May 24, 2021 at 22:11 | comment | added | gnat | @mickmackusa when discussing group of tens thousands users I would prefer to reason based on something more fundamental and reliable than refering to subjective feelings of who's involved and how it went in last 3 months. Especially since as discussed above, establishing and enforcing proposed rule can naturally lead to even more un/delete wars than before (as a matter of retailation and staying formally compliant with that rule) | |
May 24, 2021 at 22:01 | comment | added | mickmackusa | @gnat how many of the +10K users have not visited SO in the last 3 months? The overwhelming majority of folks engaged in these wars are not random passers-by. | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:57 | comment | added | mickmackusa | Some mods have colder pee versus other mods, if you get my meaning. | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:49 | comment | added | gnat | @cigien as I mentioned in prior comments, having 10-20 of them getting to meta to complain after "unfair" suspension would be quite a pain. Maybe not as big as that of Black Staurday but unlike back then, these sh!tstorms would be recurring (because the very idea of the need to un/delete duplicates is apparently permanent among many active users) | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:43 | comment | added | cigien | I'll defer to your experience on the site; I haven't myself seen the effects of a proposal like this since I've been active. I'm not sure the Black Saturday 2012 analogy works very well here though. From what I can see, that had to do with rep and that's something that pretty much every 10ker cares about (however much they deny it ;)). Limiting multiple delete votes OTOH, well, I'd be surprised if even 10% of 10kers ever have to know about this, or will even care. There are probably not many users who have ever cast more than a few delete/undelete votes in total. | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:34 | comment | added | gnat | @cigien I was (mildly) optimistic when I first read this proposal. I turned skeptical after I did the math and discovered that site has over twnty thousands 10Kers. In one of comments above I mention Black Saturday 2012 - that's when I learned that throwing something against tens thousands active users to see how it sticks might be quite a risky adventure... mildly speaking | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:24 | comment | added | Braiam | "Typical 10K user is smart, experienced and passionate. Manual, hand-picked and personalised measures to control tens thousands of them" that sounds like suspensions. I like it. | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:17 | comment | added | cigien | The "low double digits" I mentioned was the number of 10k users who participate in delete wars, not the duration of the suspensions. But to address the main point, I guess we just differ in optimism over how this will work out. I'm inclined to believe that many users do this just because they can, and because other users can do the same. I haven't really seen anyone say they want the ability to keep deleting/undeleting. If everyone is prevented from doing it, I feel this will stop happening altogether (and new cases can be dealt with easily). I am an optimist though, so who knows :/ | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:12 | comment | added | gnat | @cigien recall that original motivation of all this cumbersome and slippery rule enforcement was to tame un/delete wars. If as a result we will get more of such wars then this rule would work against its primary goal. Yes, these low-double digits you mentioned (a week? a month? a year?), they can naturally build based on retailation feelings into larger "alliances" that will just do these wars on even more duplicates than what we see now - staying formally compliant. So what we will get is more work for mods, more of the same problem that we were supposed to tame, then what's the point | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:06 | comment | added | cigien | Sure, it might be more work than is worth it; I hope the mods have considered these finer aspects, but maybe they haven't, or maybe they're wrong. I can't really speak to that. About your argument that users might retaliate: I fail to see the logic of that. So long as they follow the rules, if the motivation is that they see a rule as unfair, what's the issue with that "retaliation"? And if they break rules, well, that will be dealt with the same way any repeat offenders are dealt with. | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:00 | comment | added | gnat | ...not to mention that the very presence (and especially enforcement) of this rule carries a risk of triggering even more un/delete wars "oh okay they didn't let me do the right thing on this duplicate, I'll find more like this to un/delete without violating this unfair rule". This could work essentially like fueling a flame | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:00 | comment | added | gnat | @cigien you don't see (neither moderators who proposed this) how this is snowballing into more and more work, don't you. To prove knowing violation of the rules, you have to be prepared to address reasonably legitimate complaints like, "oh I forgot about warning that was sent to me two years ago", or "sorry, I thought it was my first un/delete vote on this question / I missed my prior vote in the lengthy timeline" - and without properly addressing these, suspension would feel unfair... | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:40 | comment | added | cigien | I agree it's a bit of work to enforce this, but the suggestion has come from mods, which means they're up for trying it out. And yes, communicating to users when they violate the rules is essential, but I think doable. It's just a question of wording the warnings well. As to upsetting high rep users, I'm not very sympathetic if they knowingly violate policy. And high rep users are suspended when they do that, and rightly so. None of this is ideal, but if we assume that the problem, i.e. del-wars, needs fixing, this proposal is the best I've heard so far that doesn't involve devs. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:33 | comment | added | gnat | ...and even with all of that, even assuming proper communication - permanently suspending 10K users, "low double digits" (a week? a month? a year?) means making them unhappy anyway - and this kind of thing towards volunteers who are proven to provide main thing at the site - high quality useful content - just doesn't feel right, no matter how you twist it | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:33 | comment | added | gnat | @cigien we're talking about rather obscure meta rule which additionally contradicts the way how system is designed now. This means, in order to have it enforced fairly, moderators would have to properly communicate it to folks who break it (suspending without prior communication honestly would feel to me even worse than un/delete wars). And this cumbersome communication should be permanently maintained to accommodate all 10Kers who are new or who simply aren't yet aware of it - as if moderators don't have better things to do... | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:15 | comment | added | cigien | 1) I really don't think this is a problem perpetuated by a significant number of 10k users. I can't say exactly how many of course, but I suspect this number to be in the low double digits. 2) You mentioned "unexpectedly suspended" (albeit in a comment), and I don't think that will be an issue. Multiple mods have stressed that warnings will be given first, and that the policy will be made clear to any user before suspensions. And I believe them completely, if for no other reason than the fact that 10k users are ... considerably harder to ignore when they feel wronged. | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:43 | comment | added | gnat | @10Rep yeah and I can imagine 10-20 (30... 40...) of them getting unexpectedly suspended and after that, coming to meta to complain. Last time I observed something like that was Black Saturday in 2012 when developers did something er... sensitive to reputation gained in deleted posts and this was quite a nightmare | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:35 | comment | added | 10 Rep | Note that of that 23,000 10k users, a good portion of them do not know about moderation tools, do not use them, or just want to get rep. There are 10k users who do the opposite of moderation, and I feel they have a significant role in these battles. While 10k are a little more mature than your typical user, a lot of them shouldn't even have the deletion privilege in the first place. | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:32 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | Fully agree that a software enforcement would be less work but I wonder if maybe SEDE could come to the help. If the delete votes are stored somewhere, maybe a script can detect multiple votings and then a suspension for second time offenders could be enough to effectively suppress multiple votings. That might actually work or at least I would be willing to try it. | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:27 | comment | added | gnat | side note to preemptively answer those who will say that solution is to get more moderators. No, I am not willing to participate in elections for 200 more candidates. Nor I am willing to extend my trust and share my PII with few hundreds more users | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:27 | history | answered | gnat | CC BY-SA 4.0 |