Timeline for Rule proposal: one delete/undelete per post
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
32 events
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May 26, 2021 at 0:46 | comment | added | khelwood | @Makyen If I am advised that it is appropriate to delete-vote mediocre superfluous answers on dupes, and under what circumstances, I will happily do so; but we need some consensus and guidelines on that, or we'll just be opening the delete/undelete wars on a new front. | |
May 26, 2021 at 0:42 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | I'm not arguing that all answers on duplicates should be deleted, merely that it's situational and that deleting such answers shouldn't be categorically considered abuse/misuse of the delete privilege. It may be abuse/misuse, and there are some closely related behaviors which are abuse/misuse that the user might also engage in. | |
May 26, 2021 at 0:42 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @khelwood I disagree that deleting the answer should be categorically considered misuse of the delete privilege (abuse). There are decent arguments that the site is better without a poor or moderate answer on the duplicate when the dup-target has good answers. Most notably, not having a non-deleted answer on the duplicate A) results in non-loged-in users being automatically forwarded to the dup-target, rather than landing on the duplicate; B) allows the Roomba to automatically delete the duplicate if it otherwise qualifies, which includes a "views" criteria for the 365 day Roomba task. | |
May 25, 2021 at 21:13 | comment | added | khelwood | Often duplicates are not signposts to better content; they are interruptions that get in the way of better content in order to interject a poorer answer. If we really want to keep dupes as signposts, then we would delete the superfluous answers on them. But that would certainly be called a misuse of the delete privilege. | |
May 25, 2021 at 13:36 | comment | added | Patrick Roberts | RE: How many signposts do we need to keep? This particular example is much worse. | |
May 24, 2021 at 23:57 | comment | added | mickmackusa | Let me answer and hammer. I'd happily do both. I am an SME on the pages where I answer. I am very well equipped to answer and appropriately nominate duplicate pages. If my closing hammer is offensive, turn of the closing feature that my dupe-marking has. This allows me to deliver support which is instantly relevant to the OP, link related content, earn rep while curating, create a more informative SO, and this prevents my correct questions and answers from being revenge attacked by angry users who do not curate anything. | |
May 24, 2021 at 23:54 | comment | added | mickmackusa | I believe what you believe @jpmc26. It is just that the goals of SO are too muddied. Should I be answering a duplicate question that only has 2 other duplicates because it needs more signposts? That is prohibitively tedious to 1. search for duplicates, 2. assess the quality/relevance of duplicate candidates, 3. then count how many duplicates are appropriate, 4. decide whether I should answer the duplicate versus just closing the nth duplicate. In the meantime, other less careful users have already slapped a FGITW answer on the page. See how the game is not simply designed for quality? | |
May 24, 2021 at 23:20 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @mickmackusa Duplicates are closed to drive information to be curated in a single post rather than have it scattered everywhere. The problem here is not closure. The problem here is people acting like spoiled children over their post being moderated. Frankly, we don't need people with that attitude on a site dedicated to building a high quality knowledge repository. | |
May 24, 2021 at 22:12 | comment | added | mickmackusa | Much of the chatter here is leading me back to the notion that duplicates should never be closed. There would be no more civil wars. We would need a new democratic tool for assessing duplicate pages "as a whole entity" against other "whole entities". This halts all disputes about who is acting selfishly and who isn't. No new user is told about the importance of curation in SE. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:41 | history | edited | Makoto | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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May 24, 2021 at 20:38 | comment | added | Makoto | @jpmc26: I suppose that's the nuance. If moderators are seeing a large amount of those kinds of deletions, then they get to ask questions and record data. I don't see it as a bad thing simply because it being flagged as abusive doesn't mean that it's actioned as abusive. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:31 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Makoto Just because a question gets closed as a duplicate doesn't mean it lacks any other severe problems. Plenty of total trash posts that have no business existing get closed for any number of applicable reasons. This rule would create the situation of preventing deletion of posts that clearly ought to be. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:30 | comment | added | Makoto | @KevinB: I'm a bit preoccupied so I can't nuance it out, but I'm still leaning more towards my first revision of "any" deletion of a duplicate should be an indication of something fishy. This way we don't have to do any guess work and the mods get to investigate those cases as they come instead of with any assumptions, because there are some valid cases in which a dupe could be deleted. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:27 | comment | added | Kevin B | IMO the proposal in this answer isn't a bad one, i just also think it does nothing to help solve the problem at hand. In many of the documented cases the deletion did happen after a week. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:26 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @10Rep If there are "umpteen" duplicates, then I'd far rather people look to prune the old duplicates with very few views. Such old, unvisited duplicates have already demonstrated that they are not good signposts. A new duplicate has at least the possibility of being a good signpost. If the new question is a good signpost, or not, isn't really something we can know without giving the question time to be indexed and see if it's a question people find. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:25 | comment | added | jpmc26 | What the hell? Why in the world would you want to forbid removing trash quickly? | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:24 | comment | added | Kevin B | Would be nice, but until they do we have the tools to deal with it ourselves. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:23 | comment | added | Makoto | @KevinB: Maybe if they wanted to show they cared they'd revisit this old proposal about strengthening the Roomba to remove poorly received answers then? | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:20 | comment | added | Kevin B | the roomba being useless in this scenario is why we're casting delete votes in the first place. The roomba can't determine what is and isn't a useful signpost. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:02 | comment | added | Scratte | @10Rep That's usually what Roomba is for. There's very rarely a need to delete a post "this very minute". And none of the posts that need to be deleted "this very minute" have these types of delete/un-delete cycles. (Yes, I know Roomba doesn't take answered posts, but that's not my point) | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:53 | comment | added | 10 Rep | @Scratte again, I am talking generally. Makoto said, "Any deletion of a post within a week of which it is closed as a duplicate is seen as abuse.". So I responded to that saying, "What if there is a post with 10 or more other duplicates, which got deleted within a week? There are plenty of questions like that. I may not be able to see the future, but any post which has 10 duplicates is no longer useful in my book. | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:51 | comment | added | Scratte | @10Rep You're suppose to wait and see if the duplicates are useful. You can't predict the future, and that is why the guideline is to not delete them. And "Umpteenth" is way over 20 in my book. They don't work very well as signposts when they are gone. | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:46 | comment | added | 10 Rep | @Scratte and is there a need for 4 duplicates? 2 - 3 duplicates is plenty. "Umpteenth" is an over exaggeration. Also, I was talking more about when Makoto said "Any deletion of a post within a week of which it is closed as a duplicate is seen as abuse.". Not about the question which caused this meta post, since this is a more general question. | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:42 | comment | added | Scratte | @10Rep Really? The post that set all this off was closed on a duplicate target that has 4, read four linked posts. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:56 | comment | added | Makoto | @KevinB: So I'm not keen on making that my concern then; if the company doesn't want to acknowledge it as a pain point, then I really don't want to fret over the things that I can't solve. This kind of out-of-hand rule seems like it's in line with what we can solve. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:54 | comment | added | Kevin B | @Makoto it never will. It hasn't for 11 years. all indications seem to point to the staff going in quite the opposite direction. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:50 | history | edited | Makoto | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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May 24, 2021 at 17:49 | comment | added | Makoto | @Machavity: Maybe then we use the "within a week" as a quantifier until that starts getting abused. I don't disagree that we should do something about all of the sign posts, but that's also something that needs to happen at a higher level of support. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:47 | comment | added | 10 Rep | There are dupes which have been asked for the umpteenth time, which need to be deleted. If the deletion of those is marked as abuse, that's just making it harder for curators to... curate. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:47 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | I agree not every dupe needs deletion (and there are some who are far too quick to pull that trigger). But the flipside is that we have a lot of folks who sail in with the same question that has already been answered multiple times. How many signposts do we need to keep? I'm remiss to say no duplicate can be deleted because sometimes there are folks who encounter a problem and immediately post without any effort at all to understand the problem first. We don't want SO to be a dumping ground for error messages | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:46 | comment | added | TylerH | This might be easier, but it is also wrong. Most posts closed as duplicates aren't useful/needed, but an upvoted answer or accepted answer will stop them from being Roomba'd. If you want to suggest a minimum exposure time before using delete votes, sure, I might be for that, but outright banning of deleting closed posts of X closure type is just as heavy-handed as mod-locking a post as a form of dispute resolution. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:24 | history | answered | Makoto | CC BY-SA 4.0 |