Timeline for Rule proposal: one delete/undelete per post
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
77 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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S Apr 27, 2023 at 14:52 | history | notice added | MachavityMod | Obsolete | |
S Apr 27, 2023 at 14:52 | history | locked | MachavityMod | ||
Oct 26, 2021 at 18:25 | vote | accept | MachavityMod | ||
Oct 26, 2021 at 18:23 | comment | added | V2Blast StaffMod | Relevant MSE post about delete/undelete votes: meta.stackexchange.com/a/371277/335251 | |
Aug 20, 2021 at 19:57 | answer | added | gparyani | timeline score: 0 | |
Jul 31, 2021 at 8:33 | answer | added | Robert Longson | timeline score: 0 | |
Jun 2, 2021 at 13:53 | comment | added | cigien | Ok, that seems reasonable. I hadn't read the "how is consensus determined" MSE post before, and that was insightful. Thanks for the clarification. | |
Jun 2, 2021 at 3:02 | comment | added | Machavity Mod |
@cigien Put another way, per Shog9 Folks are terrible at letting you know what they really want, worse at letting you know what they need... But really, really adept at informing you when you've made a bad call.
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Jun 2, 2021 at 3:01 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | @cigien The main thing here is that some folks expressed displeasure with it in answers and they were not well received. What I think you might be missing is that Meta can, and does, reject bad ideas. Even a 50/50 vote would have made me skeptical of acceptance. And this proposal really did prove Meta works, in that folks have beat the idea up and made useful suggestions. This is the best any of us can do per what the folks who ran the network put forth. | |
Jun 2, 2021 at 1:41 | comment | added | cigien | I'm personally glad that this rule has been finalized. However, my comment above was never addressed. Under what circumstances would this rule have not been finalized? It's not as if there's unanimous support for the proposal; votes on the question are at 155/22, and there are several answers with upvotes that don't entirely agree with this proposal. I just want to point out that it could look like you had already made up your mind, and the purpose of the "discussion" was only for appearance's sake, and to iron out the details of the rule that was inevitably going to be implemented. | |
Jun 2, 2021 at 1:26 | history | edited | MachavityMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Rule is now final
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May 31, 2021 at 6:08 | answer | added | gparyani | timeline score: 3 | |
May 27, 2021 at 12:33 | answer | added | francescalus | timeline score: 11 | |
May 27, 2021 at 12:02 | answer | added | Adrian Mole | timeline score: 5 | |
May 27, 2021 at 3:23 | answer | added | Shog9 | timeline score: 16 | |
May 26, 2021 at 21:21 | answer | added | 10 Rep | timeline score: 0 | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:35 | answer | added | George Stocker | timeline score: 0 | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:24 | history | edited | MachavityMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Clarified this isn't final
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May 26, 2021 at 16:19 | comment | added | Kevin B | closure and deletion both have always favored things remaining in the "open" state when purely viewed from the number of actions needed to perform either. the close vote change to 3 helped in the closure direction, but by design any such system will have that "feature", I wasn't ignoring it. When a post is obviously low quality and useless, we should be able to overcome that "feature" if the one vote per person is enforced. | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:10 | comment | added | Red | @Machavity I see. There would be a lot more work of the moderators then :( Thanks! | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:06 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | OK, but your comment that undelete only wins if they are in a majority was inaccurate and didn't indicate you understood the process. | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:06 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | There are no system limits at present. If/when they are added, we can revisit this. The sole goal is to limit the chain voting causing moderation issues | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:05 | comment | added | Kevin B | I am aware of the math behind it | |
May 26, 2021 at 16:03 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @KevinB Those who want to undelete don't need to be in the majority. They just need enough to undelete an be in the minority by less than enough users to delete. The undelete is second. Thus, if there's parity in the number of delete/undelete voters and each user only gets one vote in a direction, then the undelete side wins. Delete wins if there are enough users willing to vote to delete it one more time than enough to vote to undelete. Given that the owner of the post can vote for undeletion each time, and is likely to do so, it's actually even more skewed towards undeletion than that. | |
May 26, 2021 at 15:57 | comment | added | Kevin B | @Roland only if they are in the majority. in the cases i've seen in the past month... it's generally not been that. | |
May 26, 2021 at 15:54 | comment | added | Kevin B | correct, until SE decides to do something about it, it's all moderator controlled. | |
May 26, 2021 at 15:53 | comment | added | Red | Addressing new active rule, basically if a user votes to delete/undelete a post for a second time on the same post, they will get a moderator note, right? So the system doesn't block it still? | |
May 26, 2021 at 15:49 | history | edited | MachavityMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Added a note about the FAQ entry
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May 26, 2021 at 14:26 | comment | added | Braiam | @Roland which is what I fear. | |
May 26, 2021 at 13:16 | history | edited | MachavityMod |
edited tags
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May 26, 2021 at 8:59 | comment | added | Roland | @KevinB I don't see how? Unless additional users get involved, the user who undeletes wins by default. | |
May 26, 2021 at 0:20 | answer | added | Travis J | timeline score: 8 | |
May 25, 2021 at 10:01 | answer | added | einpoklum | timeline score: -5 | |
May 25, 2021 at 8:14 | comment | added | 0Valt | @Trilarion - Unfortunately, this info is not included: "(Note that the history of deleted posts is scrubbed from this table in SEDE.)" (see the schema) | |
May 25, 2021 at 8:11 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | It would be nice if a script on SEDE could keep track of this, but unfortunately the Posthistory seems to not contain information about deleted questions, or does it? | |
May 24, 2021 at 21:53 | comment | added | Braiam | I asked for information about this. If we are going to create a rule, and since there seem to be no lack of rhetoric, lets put add some facts to the discussion. | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:51 | answer | added | gparyani | timeline score: 10 | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:21 | answer | added | jpmc26 | timeline score: -19 | |
May 24, 2021 at 20:13 | answer | added | Joshua | timeline score: -7 | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:27 | answer | added | gnat | timeline score: 18 | |
May 24, 2021 at 19:14 | history | edited | Laurel | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
I was not sure it was clear so I hopefully made it clear
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May 24, 2021 at 18:51 | history | edited | MachavityMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
The verbiage of this link didn't convey what I was aiming for. Shifted to more appropriate text
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May 24, 2021 at 18:27 | answer | added | Sagar V | timeline score: 14 | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:49 | comment | added | TylerH | @mickmackusa The majority should typically win disputes, in any situation. Certainly on a crowd-moderated public site. So if there are more people who think a Q should be in state A vs state B, then it naturally will (and probably should) remain in state B. If everyone visiting a post were allowed a vote, that might not be a good idea... but the people qualified to weigh in are a select few who have 10k reputation or more. | |
May 24, 2021 at 17:24 | answer | added | Makoto | timeline score: -11 | |
May 24, 2021 at 14:55 | answer | added | Ian Kemp | timeline score: -12 | |
May 24, 2021 at 14:45 | comment | added | Kevin B | If this would help fight against these people who run around and undelete everything, i'm all for it. | |
May 24, 2021 at 13:59 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | @BrettCaswell Here's how this has been playing out for mods. A question gets an answer and a dupehammer. The answerer (or a sympathetic hammer) reopens. Another sympathetic hammer closes and sympathetic voters delete. Then the first group undeletes and reopens. Because the system has no limits, a question may now go through as many as a dozen cycles, and often for semantic reasoning that mods can't sort out (we can resolve many things, but not semantic disputes for on-topic content). As I said, the goal is to create a simple rule mods can enforce neutrally | |
May 24, 2021 at 13:56 | comment | added | Robert Harvey | It's not the worst rationale I've heard. But if it's now become a problem, it needs to be revisited. | |
May 24, 2021 at 13:54 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | @RobertHarvey It wasn't an issue for a long time because the privs were few and far between. That was literally the reasoning used back in the day | |
May 24, 2021 at 13:45 | comment | added | Brett Caswell | @Machavity as written, I don't support this and I'm having trouble understanding the basis or merit to it in that respect. I feel this proposal and question could be improved by clarifying the merit and reasoning as to why there should be "... an objective rule moderators could enforce to end the cycle [of disputes among moderators]". Is this concept of finalizing disputes between "motivated users" (i.e. moderators) a benefit or principal that justifies the existence of a constraint and rule? is the recordation of these activities (disputes) posing an issue? | |
May 24, 2021 at 13:17 | comment | added | Robert Harvey | I support this. It should be a coded rule of the system. I actually thought this was the way it already worked, probably because this is the way close votes already work. But it should work the same way close votes work; each individual should only get one bite at the apple. | |
May 24, 2021 at 12:52 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | @oguzismail You can do them in either order. The simple standard is you get one of each per post | |
May 24, 2021 at 12:49 | comment | added | oguz ismail | One can first vote to delete, and then undelete (and vv) though, right? | |
May 24, 2021 at 8:24 | comment | added | Stephen C | These are more like triple ko fights :-( | |
May 24, 2021 at 8:10 | answer | added | Dalija PrasnikarMod | timeline score: 80 | |
May 24, 2021 at 6:28 | comment | added | matt | @Machavity ko fights of all sorts are bad on Stack Overflow (edit-and-rollback for instance). It sounds to me like deletion is being way over-used here. I'm a big enthusiast for closing inappropriate questions that need closing, and I use the dupe hammer like crazy, but I am nowhere near so likely to vote to delete a question. I have 20000 close votes but only 3000 delete votes. On the whole, in fact, when it comes to duplicates, I want the duplicate to remain — closed but visible. It's like a "see also" in the great encyclopedia that we are all constructing together. | |
May 24, 2021 at 4:24 | history | became hot meta post | |||
May 24, 2021 at 3:14 | comment | added | Braiam | @PM2Ring well, I've seen plenty of those and they are usually unproductive. One side has the tools to fix the issue but refuses to use them. The other use the tools at their disposal. That's to what it boils down everything. | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:36 | answer | added | Zombo | timeline score: -19 | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:30 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | @Braiam I don't think I've ever been involved in a delete/undelete war. If I see an undeleted question that I'd delete voted on, my first response would be to discuss it in chat, or possibly on meta. | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:30 | comment | added | Baum mit Augen Mod | @PM2Ring Well, this is the point at hand: Currently, there is no clear rule, so you can't really fault folks for using their privileges the way the system allows them to. What this post proposes is a change to the status quo, where we would have a more solid base for ending these voting wars (and, quite importantly, community backed guidance on how to resolve them). Of course, still do vote on the question and the answers as you see fit if you disagree with my opinion. | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:26 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | I am concerned that this method won't be sufficiently effective, due to the mob tug-o-war effect that mickmackusa mentions. And those mobs aren't necessarily just groups of people that "know" each other through comment interactions, meta posts, or chat rooms. They can be perfect strangers that just happen to share an attitude, eg members who think that SO should be a help desk... | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:24 | comment | added | Braiam | @PM2Ring just follow the SO mission of creating a library of high quality programming questions. I'm sure you will arrive to a solution. ;) | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:21 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | @Baum "The vast majority of users of this site is helpful and tries to follow the rules, especially among invested users who have the deletion privilege" I mostly agree, but if that were strictly true, then we wouldn't have these delete/undelete wars in the first place. ;) You have made me feel a little more sympathetic towards Machavity's proposal, but I'll refrain from voting until I've had more time to think about it, and see others' responses. | |
May 24, 2021 at 2:09 | comment | added | Sebastian Simon | Should the counter “reset” after a significant edit of the post? Not sure how often this happens or if it makes a huge difference, but it makes sense to allow reevaluating the post’s merit after an edit. At least, could you clarify if one user should be allowed to cast one delete vote and one undelete vote on one post, or only one vote of any type in total? | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:57 | comment | added | Braiam | @cigien the one with more users on the side. Which is rubbish considering that there are better alternatives. mickmack notes this issue in their comment. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:50 | comment | added | cigien | How exactly is "consensus" being measured here? i.e. what criteria is going to be used to decide if this is something the community wants? Hopefully it's not just the vote ratio on the question (I might want to downvote the question for bad formatting, even though I agree with the proposal, say). If it is, what's the ratio? Maybe we could use votes on answers? I see Baum already has one in the affirmative, but that also has the issue mentioned above. I think it's important to include in the proposal, how it's decided if this is going to be implemented. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:47 | comment | added | Baum mit Augen Mod | @PM2Ring That's true, but at least it would only affect users violating a rule set by Meta, rather than everyone who tries to interact with a post that happened to be subject to such a fight. Also, don't underestimate the value of a fair warning. The vast majority of users of this site is helpful and tries to follow the rules, especially among invested users who have the deletion privilege. Giving them a heads up will mostly be sufficient and usually will not end in heavy-handed actions like suspensions. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:39 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | @Baum Sure, but suspension is also rather heavy. And for Machavity's proposal to be effective, those who break this multiple delete rule after receiving a fair warning must receive a suspension. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:34 | comment | added | Baum mit Augen Mod | @PM2Ring As Machavity mentioned before, locking a post is quite heavy handed. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:30 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | Why not just lock questions that have been through (say) 2 delete/undelete cycles (without substantial changes that affect the quality of the post)? If any of the concerned parties want to discuss it, they can bring it to meta. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:21 | comment | added | mickmackusa | Well, I think this decision benefits the "mob" that affiliate with and those with a "smaller mob" will not have the numbers to combat the decision of my mob. I see what you are doing and I understand; I'm just making an observation. | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:20 | comment | added | Machavity Mod | @mickmackusa What I mean by "winner" is that if we (mods, community, etc) do nothing, the largest mob wins. If we diamond delete, the deleters win. And if we lock it, nobody wins. No matter which option we pick, somebody "loses" | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:18 | answer | added | Baum mit AugenMod | timeline score: 94 | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:18 | comment | added | mickmackusa | So does the winning "side" of the war boil down to who has more voting volunteers between the two "mobs"? | |
May 24, 2021 at 1:10 | history | asked | MachavityMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |