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Peter Cordes
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Your main argument in comments under other answers that point out why voting is essential for SO seemseems to be that the possibility of a few people voting for the wrong reasons (e.g. personal reasons or biases about the user, not the content) cause such a big problem that nobody should be allowed to vote. (You even made an analogy to gun control in a comment.)

This argument is flawed because voting and shooting are fundamentally different. One bad shooter can permanently kill people, and no amount of good gun-owners can bring them back to life, or (safely+reliably) prevent it in the first place. So there's a valid argument for gun control.

But voting is 1. not permanent (can be reversed after an edit fixes problems), and 2. only really matters as far as the total. One malicious downvote can be drowned out by a few upvotes, leaving the post with an overall positive score. A random undeserved downvote might make someone unhappy for a few minutes, and maybe spend time re-checking their post for something to improve, but doesn't have any serious permanent effect.

So what matters is that most (not necessarily all) votes are based on the quality of a post, not revenge on a user that you think downvoted you, or other personal reasons you hypothesize.

Also 3. voting on one question doesn't have a serious permanent effect on anyone's whole life. Even just talking about SO, it takes multiple downvoted questions to get question-banned.

I think there's strong evidence that the majority of votes are based on quality, especially for answers (times visibility: some great obscure answers don't have nearly enough upvotes especially late answers on popular questions, and some obscure bad or low-quality ones aren't downvoted much). Look at lots of popular questions, and you'll usually find well-written text that explains something clearly and correctly.

A few bad actors who vote for wrong reasons (like revenge on another user whose comment they didn't like) don't ruin the system.

Definitely a lot of questions get downvoted, but interesting, well-formatted and well-explained new questions do still get upvotes, regardless of who asks them. Experienced SO users are much more likely to put in the effort to make their questions "nice" in terms of formatting and presenting what they do know and what they're looking for, but new users that try certainly do manage it, sometimes with help from someone editing their question when there's an interesting question that just needs some better formatting.

Most users have pretty high standards these days for new questions that are worth answering, and for "research effort" for basic questions. (I think that's a good thing. Stack Overflow shouldn't try to be everyone's helpdesk where you can dash off a low-effort question.) I understand that it's not ideal to have so many new users with misconceptions about our quality standards that get their questions downvoted, but removing downvotes altogether is not a viable solution.

The real issue may be that you disagree with, or don't understand or like, the quality standards that most SO users have for questions. We're trying to filter a firehose of questions to weed out ones that aren't worth being part of the site's permanent collection for whatever reason.

Stack Overflow management is part of the problem for new users: they encourage / design the site to make it easy to post questions without having learned about the community's expectations for quality, favouring question volume / traffic instead of the site's original purpose (a repo of good Q&As) which is still the reason most long-term users joined and stay active.

Your main argument in comments under other answers that point out why voting is essential for SO seem to be that the possibility of a few people voting for the wrong reasons (e.g. personal reasons or biases about the user, not the content) cause such a big problem that nobody should be allowed to vote. (You even made an analogy to gun control in a comment.)

This argument is flawed because voting and shooting are fundamentally different. One bad shooter can permanently kill people, and no amount of good gun-owners can bring them back to life, or (safely+reliably) prevent it in the first place. So there's a valid argument for gun control.

But voting is 1. not permanent (can be reversed after an edit fixes problems), and 2. only really matters as far as the total. One malicious downvote can be drowned out by a few upvotes, leaving the post with an overall positive score. A random undeserved downvote might make someone unhappy for a few minutes, and maybe spend time re-checking their post for something to improve, but doesn't have any serious permanent effect.

So what matters is that most (not necessarily all) votes are based on the quality of a post, not revenge on a user that you think downvoted you, or other personal reasons you hypothesize.

Also 3. voting on one question doesn't have a serious permanent effect on anyone's whole life. Even just talking about SO, it takes multiple downvoted questions to get question-banned.

I think there's strong evidence that the majority of votes are based on quality, especially for answers (times visibility: some great obscure answers don't have nearly enough upvotes especially late answers on popular questions, and some obscure bad or low-quality ones aren't downvoted much). Look at lots of popular questions, and you'll usually find well-written text that explains something clearly and correctly.

A few bad actors who vote for wrong reasons (like revenge on another user whose comment they didn't like) don't ruin the system.

Definitely a lot of questions get downvoted, but interesting, well-formatted and well-explained new questions do still get upvotes, regardless of who asks them. Experienced SO users are much more likely to put in the effort to make their questions "nice" in terms of formatting and presenting what they do know and what they're looking for, but new users that try certainly do manage it, sometimes with help from someone editing their question when there's an interesting question that just needs some better formatting.

Most users have pretty high standards these days for new questions that are worth answering, and for "research effort" for basic questions. (I think that's a good thing. Stack Overflow shouldn't try to be everyone's helpdesk where you can dash off a low-effort question.) I understand that it's not ideal to have so many new users with misconceptions about our quality standards that get their questions downvoted, but removing downvotes altogether is not a viable solution.

The real issue may be that you disagree with, or don't understand or like, the quality standards that most SO users have for questions. We're trying to filter a firehose of questions to weed out ones that aren't worth being part of the site's permanent collection for whatever reason.

Stack Overflow management is part of the problem for new users: they encourage / design the site to make it easy to post questions without having learned about the community's expectations for quality, favouring question volume / traffic instead of the site's original purpose (a repo of good Q&As) which is still the reason most long-term users joined and stay active.

Your main argument in comments under other answers seems to be that the possibility of a few people voting for the wrong reasons (e.g. personal reasons or biases about the user, not the content) cause such a big problem that nobody should be allowed to vote. (You even made an analogy to gun control in a comment.)

This argument is flawed because voting and shooting are fundamentally different. One bad shooter can permanently kill people, and no amount of good gun-owners can bring them back to life, or (safely+reliably) prevent it in the first place. So there's a valid argument for gun control.

But voting is 1. not permanent (can be reversed after an edit fixes problems), and 2. only really matters as far as the total. One malicious downvote can be drowned out by a few upvotes, leaving the post with an overall positive score. A random undeserved downvote might make someone unhappy for a few minutes, and maybe spend time re-checking their post for something to improve, but doesn't have any serious permanent effect.

So what matters is that most (not necessarily all) votes are based on the quality of a post, not revenge on a user that you think downvoted you, or other personal reasons you hypothesize.

Also 3. voting on one question doesn't have a serious permanent effect on anyone's whole life. Even just talking about SO, it takes multiple downvoted questions to get question-banned.

I think there's strong evidence that the majority of votes are based on quality, especially for answers (times visibility: some great obscure answers don't have nearly enough upvotes especially late answers on popular questions, and some obscure bad or low-quality ones aren't downvoted much). Look at lots of popular questions, and you'll usually find well-written text that explains something clearly and correctly.

A few bad actors who vote for wrong reasons (like revenge on another user whose comment they didn't like) don't ruin the system.

Definitely a lot of questions get downvoted, but interesting, well-formatted and well-explained new questions do still get upvotes, regardless of who asks them. Experienced SO users are much more likely to put in the effort to make their questions "nice" in terms of formatting and presenting what they do know and what they're looking for, but new users that try certainly do manage it, sometimes with help from someone editing their question when there's an interesting question that just needs some better formatting.

Most users have pretty high standards these days for new questions that are worth answering, and for "research effort" for basic questions. (I think that's a good thing. Stack Overflow shouldn't try to be everyone's helpdesk where you can dash off a low-effort question.) I understand that it's not ideal to have so many new users with misconceptions about our quality standards that get their questions downvoted, but removing downvotes altogether is not a viable solution.

The real issue may be that you disagree with, or don't understand or like, the quality standards that most SO users have for questions. We're trying to filter a firehose of questions to weed out ones that aren't worth being part of the site's permanent collection for whatever reason.

Stack Overflow management is part of the problem for new users: they encourage / design the site to make it easy to post questions without having learned about the community's expectations for quality, favouring question volume / traffic instead of the site's original purpose (a repo of good Q&As) which is still the reason most long-term users joined and stay active.

Source Link
Peter Cordes
  • 360.5k
  • 1
  • 45
  • 74

Your main argument in comments under other answers that point out why voting is essential for SO seem to be that the possibility of a few people voting for the wrong reasons (e.g. personal reasons or biases about the user, not the content) cause such a big problem that nobody should be allowed to vote. (You even made an analogy to gun control in a comment.)

This argument is flawed because voting and shooting are fundamentally different. One bad shooter can permanently kill people, and no amount of good gun-owners can bring them back to life, or (safely+reliably) prevent it in the first place. So there's a valid argument for gun control.

But voting is 1. not permanent (can be reversed after an edit fixes problems), and 2. only really matters as far as the total. One malicious downvote can be drowned out by a few upvotes, leaving the post with an overall positive score. A random undeserved downvote might make someone unhappy for a few minutes, and maybe spend time re-checking their post for something to improve, but doesn't have any serious permanent effect.

So what matters is that most (not necessarily all) votes are based on the quality of a post, not revenge on a user that you think downvoted you, or other personal reasons you hypothesize.

Also 3. voting on one question doesn't have a serious permanent effect on anyone's whole life. Even just talking about SO, it takes multiple downvoted questions to get question-banned.

I think there's strong evidence that the majority of votes are based on quality, especially for answers (times visibility: some great obscure answers don't have nearly enough upvotes especially late answers on popular questions, and some obscure bad or low-quality ones aren't downvoted much). Look at lots of popular questions, and you'll usually find well-written text that explains something clearly and correctly.

A few bad actors who vote for wrong reasons (like revenge on another user whose comment they didn't like) don't ruin the system.

Definitely a lot of questions get downvoted, but interesting, well-formatted and well-explained new questions do still get upvotes, regardless of who asks them. Experienced SO users are much more likely to put in the effort to make their questions "nice" in terms of formatting and presenting what they do know and what they're looking for, but new users that try certainly do manage it, sometimes with help from someone editing their question when there's an interesting question that just needs some better formatting.

Most users have pretty high standards these days for new questions that are worth answering, and for "research effort" for basic questions. (I think that's a good thing. Stack Overflow shouldn't try to be everyone's helpdesk where you can dash off a low-effort question.) I understand that it's not ideal to have so many new users with misconceptions about our quality standards that get their questions downvoted, but removing downvotes altogether is not a viable solution.

The real issue may be that you disagree with, or don't understand or like, the quality standards that most SO users have for questions. We're trying to filter a firehose of questions to weed out ones that aren't worth being part of the site's permanent collection for whatever reason.

Stack Overflow management is part of the problem for new users: they encourage / design the site to make it easy to post questions without having learned about the community's expectations for quality, favouring question volume / traffic instead of the site's original purpose (a repo of good Q&As) which is still the reason most long-term users joined and stay active.