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Feb 27, 2021 at 15:53 comment added J... @GeorgeStocker I reject that premise too. Read what I said again.
Feb 27, 2021 at 15:14 comment added George Stocker @J... First I reject the premise that having the discussion on the removal of downvotes is trolling. It is in fact something that has been discussed at multiple levels both inside of Stack Overflow and out. This is software we are talking about; and software can be changed. If we don't have the discussion periodically, we have no way of knowing if anything's changed, sentiment wise. This bothers the regulars that want things to be the same forever; but that's not how the world works. Allowing these discussions is important to our health, and to the signals we send to the community.
Feb 27, 2021 at 14:28 comment added J... @GeorgeStocker Pick an analogy then. Suggesting that an architect make a building out of cheese - whatever. The point is that at some point we should not feel obliged to make a serious discussion of something that amounts to little more than trolling.
Feb 27, 2021 at 14:24 comment added George Stocker @j... comparing Stack Overflow’s meta to the Walmart boardroom is certainly a take.
Feb 27, 2021 at 14:01 comment added J... @GeorgeStocker If you stood up in the boardroom of WalMart and suggested raising everyone's pay to $1M with no credible analysis to show how you could do it without the place imploding the next day then the discussion would end right there - because it's a ridiculous idea with no merit and no work done to defend itself. Some things deserve to be laughed out of court. Losing a disaffected, low engagement, low quality user is not a bad thing. A culture of quality has to be elitist because the mean does not produce quality. A twitter feed shows us exactly what SE would become without standards.
Feb 27, 2021 at 13:04 comment added George Stocker @J... it isn’t about whether I can go on for hours about it. It isn’t about me, and it isn’t about you, and it isn’t about what the regulars want. It’s about allowing the discussion to last more than 36 minutes because being open for discussion keeps the community healthy and ensures we don’t die because we chased away all the change agents.
Feb 27, 2021 at 9:46 comment added J... @GeorgeStocker Are you telling me that you couldn't stand up and give an impromptu 15-minute talk on why downvoting is important on StackOverflow without resorting to a cramming session on Meta beforehand? Seriously? Do you think anyone else here is any different? If OP was actually proposing an alternative solution with compelling evidence to suggest it might work then I'd perhaps agree with you, but the question was nothing more than a rant. We don't need to provide personal education for every misguided goon with a soapbox.
Feb 27, 2021 at 4:01 comment added Peter Mortensen Questions with more than about 10 downvotes (or vote total?) are already being removed from the main page (and are thus effectively deleted). Thus, the pile on argument does not hold (after 10 downvotes). What are the exceptions to that rule? New answers? Edits?
Feb 26, 2021 at 23:03 comment added George Stocker @cigien Now we're getting to the ancillary effects of this problematic practice: if regulars are deleting these questions within minutes, it becomes hard to impossible to ever find the best possible defensible question because by virtue of this problematic practice it was deleted very quickly. So you either have to be lucky or be a Stack Overflow developer with access to the posts database to find a post to use to show the practice is problematic.
Feb 26, 2021 at 23:00 comment added cigien @GeorgeStocker Ah, I see. No, I think it's a problematic practice, and I tried to express that (along with my reasons) in my answer. The comment was just to ask if you monitor the active page, since there are certainly better examples that could have been picked to make your point. It would have let me avoid the footnote at the bottom of my answer at least :)
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:57 comment added George Stocker @cigien Forgive me, of course; but your comment gave me the impression that you thought this was Good And Something We Should Continue to Do on Meta, and that's why I said unknowingly. I didn't realize you came to the conclusion that this practice was a Bad Thing™.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:55 comment added cigien @GeorgeStocker Well yes, but I'm not sure what you mean by "unknowingly". Perhaps you missed it, but I wrote an answer to your question saying basically the same thing. In my own words of course.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:48 comment added George Stocker @cigien I think you've just unknowingly hit upon the crux of the problem: There are regulars who don't want to entertain discussion on things the regulars have made up their minds on long ago; and that speaks to an unhealthy aspect of the culture: an unwillingness to entertain the concept of change. If people in a community can't speak up and highlight things they think need to change; the community can't inspect and adapt, and the community can't grow and evolve. This is a death knell for a community, it's why no one likes usenet or forums. They become insular and hostile.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:44 comment added cigien @GeorgeStocker Just curious: I know you read a lot of the Meta posts, but do you monitor the active page a lot? I do, and I can assure you that posts that go against the majority consensus get deleted all the time. For much the reason in the first sentence in this answer: "we aren't going to miss it". The "we" being the majority of course.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:43 comment added Cerbrus Well you're the one that thinks this is a problem. The burden is on you to provide a compelling example.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:42 comment added George Stocker @Cerbrus so your solution is "Just spend all your time on meta to find a really good question that has this happen to it so we can't use the excuse of "this is a poor question" to shut down discussion around the practice of deleting questions quickly?" Hrm. Not a good plan.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:41 comment added Cerbrus So you can probably happen upon a better one when it happens. It's not like those questions are rare... That's the whole problem.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:39 comment added George Stocker @Cerbrus I happened to be looking at it on meta when it happened.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:39 comment added Cerbrus Well you found this one, didn't you? Wait, what am I asking?
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:38 comment added George Stocker @Cerbrus If people are downvoting and deleting questions they don't like; and deleted questions are by design really hard to find; how would someone find a perfect candidate to talk about? Even asking that means you either don't know how hard it is; or you're saying that knowing full well what you're asking is hard to impossible for someone to do methodically.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:37 comment added Cerbrus Well, that's your opinion, which probably would've been stronger if you'd have asked this about a better meta question. Frankly, the timing is completely irrelevant. That just means more people are active on meta at this time.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:36 comment added George Stocker It's also interesting that everyone is ignoring the main thrust of my question: Even if you do want it deleted; is deleting it minutes after it's posted a good idea? Does that send a good signal to the community? (no, and no).
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:34 comment added George Stocker @Cerbrus it is when the supposed duplicate is years old. Policies can change; systems can change; if we had discussed it two weeks ago I could see downvote/delete; but if the last major discussion we've had on it is years ago; then no I don't see closing and deleting it as a good signal of a community's willingness to have tough conversations. Deleting it shows that the community isn't healthy, and that's far worse than the discussion being deleted.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:33 comment added Dharman Mod Their voice was heard. They received two answers. They have also got a lot of feedback in the form of votes, both on the question and the answer. It looks to me like that discussion is over.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:30 comment added Cerbrus Is telling someone "Hey we've had this discussion here, go there" saying their "voice isn't worth anything", or is it informing them of where they should go to be heard?
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:27 comment added George Stocker The point isn't the the point of the discussion; it's allowing the discussion itself. Let's say for a moment (right now) that I had the power and abliity to delete your answer. it's not adding anything new, therefore I'll delete it. What signal would that send to you? that your voice isn't worth anything. Is that the signal we want to send to people who bring up discussions on meta? Not if we want a healthy meta community. A community that can't discuss problems is a community that can't fix problems, is a community that will wither and die.
Feb 26, 2021 at 22:24 history answered DharmanMod CC BY-SA 4.0