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Jan 14, 2023 at 23:46 history edited mklement0
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Aug 24, 2022 at 7:15 comment added lonix And, I think we all know who is @Broccoli. I feel very sorry for him because he does brilliant thankless work - he's one of the only ones keeping [regex] alive. Thank you Broccoli.
Aug 24, 2022 at 7:07 comment added lonix Wow... I thought it was "just me", then I find this (and similar) threads. Why are we dancing around the topic - we know who are the two/three people responsible. This doesn't happen in other tags I'm familiar with (I use many), just [regex]. Are there different rules for regex to the rest of SO? If yes, it should be spun off as a separate site; if no, there should the same "general" standard. The regex tag is no longer helpful, just frustrating because some guys use it as an advertising space for their consulting services, and to do so, they need to shape it according to their needs.
May 24, 2021 at 15:46 comment added mickmackusa I promise to vote to delete closed pages MUCH LESS if/when other users agree to close closable questions instead of answering them.
Apr 26, 2021 at 11:57 comment added user5349916 @ArvindKumarAvinash Every "needs focus" question is about solving <N> problems with a single <code pattern>. The code pattern being written in regex does not change that.
Apr 26, 2021 at 11:54 comment added user5349916 @ArvindKumarAvinash I assure you I have no interest in any "cause", be it with or against some anthropomorphic cabbage. I find it outright absurd what kind of content is being defended here. As far as I can tell, either this is a clear duplicate because the problem is being solved, or it clearly needs focus because it is about at least 4 problems at once, going by your list.
Apr 26, 2021 at 11:38 comment added user5349916 @ArvindKumarAvinash Just to be clear: You say the duplicate does not solve the issue because one has to pad it with problem-specific, constant characters?
Mar 15, 2021 at 13:46 comment added VLAZ @aneroid this argument hinges on all duplicates being both 1. unique 2. good. Whereas in my experience, a lot of regex questions are neither. I don't even want to count how many are "how do I match digits" or "how do I match the entire string". We probably get one a day on average of those. If you think they all provide value, then I point you again at the rate we're getting them. Unless maybe there is some critical mass we can achieve that will make new questions like that show up less.
Mar 11, 2021 at 10:37 comment added aneroid I wonder if it's occurred to people doing this, that if they deleted fewer questions/dupes, then there might actually be fewer new questions re-asking the same thing - since the existing one's one show up in search results, including the dupes they link to. So many of the examples aren't "basic" but will definitely get re-asked since they've been deleted. If everyone could understand everything in TFM then there'd be no need for StackOverflow :-/
Mar 9, 2021 at 9:57 comment added E_net4 That example is particularly tricky, @ArvindKumarAvinash. The suggested duplicate does mention in prose that the string may have delimiting forward slashes around the expression (quoting: "If I say that they don't need to have //'s around the regex they enter, then they can't set flags, like g and i. So they have to have the //'s around the expression"). However, and oddly enough, the accepted answer (and most voted!) does not address this, whereas the second most voted one does. Frankly, this would call for a problem more serious than that of deleting the Nth duplicate.
Mar 8, 2021 at 15:50 comment added Ivar @ArvindKumarAvinash It does seem like a valid duplicate though. Doesn't the second most upvoted answer from that duplicate answer that question?
Mar 8, 2021 at 15:43 comment added Arvind Kumar Avinash It looks like this question has been just saved narrowly from being deleted.
Mar 7, 2021 at 22:03 comment added akrun @ronythomas He is doing the same deletion stuff again and again.
Mar 6, 2021 at 15:58 comment added user5349916 @Broccoli Do I disagree that these examples are bad actions? Not at all. But I disagree that they should be used for finger pointing. I disagree that they should be used to allege dishonesty or acting with pretext. I disagree that we should be thankful for people keeping the regex tag a regex-writing-service.
Mar 6, 2021 at 15:50 comment added user5349916 @Broccoli The problem is with this entire discussion being set up to be about persons, and not about actions.
Mar 6, 2021 at 15:37 comment added Broccoli @MisterMiyagi There's absolutely nothing wrong with deleting common duplicates. Those should be deleted. The problem is with deleting questions with good answers that aren't duplicates, or questions with good answers that are duplicates of very rare older questions without many votes or linked questions. Check out the links in the post again. I don't believe any of them fall under "common duplicate."
Mar 6, 2021 at 6:03 comment added user5349916 @ronythomas You do realize that blindly offering the solution to the same problem the n'th time is a slap in the face to those investing their time curating all these solutions? That at some point one must be greatful to the people maintaining what is there instead of steadily adding to the pile? I am sure we all have benefited from well curated content, and all I can say is don't paint such a black-and-white picture.
Mar 5, 2021 at 21:04 comment added rony thomas @Wiktor and Oguz and others . The deletion you are carrying out in the pretext(As it appears to be) of eliminating duplicates is a slap in the face to those who devote their time and energy for offering solutions. Be thankful to the generations of people who wrote/developed 'regex' and still contributing to it. I am sure we all have benefited from what Opensource tools have offered to us and all I can say is give respect to earn respect.
Mar 2, 2021 at 19:39 comment added akrun @Broccoli If this was answered by anybody else, it would have been deleted. This was answered today. I am very disappointed that SO doesn't take any action when the evidence is so big.
Mar 2, 2021 at 10:29 history edited Peter Mortensen CC BY-SA 4.0
Fixed the question formation - missing auxiliary (or helping) verb - see e.g. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4yWEt0OSpg&t=1m49s> (see also <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5NfSzXfrI> (QUASM)). Made the example lists real lists (but perhaps the examples should be numbered?)
Feb 26, 2021 at 16:19 comment added Braiam @Trilarion that's because the commenter left out the other paragraph. See my comment above or follow the link and search for the title "Should duplicates be deleted?". If I were cynic I would say that it was deliberate.
Feb 26, 2021 at 16:17 comment added Braiam @davidbak it's literally the lowest common denominator. You can answer nothing but regex questions and get easily +40k reputation.
Feb 26, 2021 at 16:16 comment added Braiam @anubhava "Duplicates that are word-for-word copies or that are so poorly written that they are not useful may be deleted by users with sufficient privilege." Please, complete your quote.
Feb 26, 2021 at 14:51 comment added Gimby @Scratte I'm going to repeat myself: Assume the best when you can't prove the worst :) I don't endorse rep farming, just stating that those kind of tags don't exactly make it hard to do by their very nature.
Feb 26, 2021 at 14:24 comment added Scratte @Gimby Does that mean that gold hammers in those tags got their hammers by answering almost duplicates fast? And in such case isn't it a little strange they're closing the same type of posts that they've answered to get the hammer? Should some tags be exempt from the dupe hammer feature?
Feb 26, 2021 at 13:13 comment added Gimby @davidbak Well... it's an easy way to farm reputation points for one. Regular expressions falls in the category of SQL, CSS and other related tags which are "code but not actually code" topics. The problems people have are so defined by context that they're hard to dupe close, so it's rather easy to answer the same questions over and over again by adjusting to the situational differences. If you're good at it and can answer fast, it's lucrative.
Feb 26, 2021 at 3:53 comment added davidbak I love SO and it has helped me so many times. It is nearly always my first resource to go to. But not for regex. Why? Because there's about a jillion good regex resources on the net with language-by-language comparisons, details of obscure features, and, best of all, online visualizations of regex behavior. That's why I'm somewhat bemused at this particular meta question pointing out this particular behavior on this particular tag. Of all possible subjects to help people with on SO, some which get very little attention: why put your effort into regex?
Feb 25, 2021 at 22:28 comment added Kevin B At least one of those users have shown interest in discussing the issue, it's not like we're dealing with people who aren't open to disucssion/change
Feb 25, 2021 at 22:25 comment added Scratte @KevinB Because the post isn't about a single post or several ones. It's about what to do when a user is deleting (and closing) a lot of post that maybe shouldn't have been deleted. Bringing up single posts will never address that. Nothing really ever changes from those meta posts, expect for that one post on main.
Feb 25, 2021 at 22:19 comment added Kevin B I think if we took a few of these cases out and individually explored them, we could come to a more... agreeable outcome, understanding why someone felt it should be deleted, looking through all the existing sign posts to see whether or not the keywords in question were already covered, etc, and potentially learn something from it that we can then use as a reference... rather than just listing dozens of deleted questions and letting the cards fall where they do. I personally have no interest in the regex tag, so... not something I would lead
Feb 25, 2021 at 21:41 comment added Kevin B like, i definitely understand the frustration here, but it's just not something that we the community have the tools to deal with fairly. The most productive thing we can do is bring up individual questions and discuss each specific case; if we think users are abusing their privileges', that's outside the realm of the tools we have (other than raising a flag)
Feb 25, 2021 at 21:39 comment added zcoop98 @Kevin That's fair; the motives of the curators in question shouldn't be judged any more positively or negatively than OP's in this case... I guess my impression is that this post is open-minded, or at the very least civil.
Feb 25, 2021 at 21:36 comment added Kevin B @zcoop98 If done in an open-minded way, sure. We don't know the specifics of how these three users are interacting or if they're interacting at all. That's what we have mods for. We have a tag that questions can be tagged with for discussing specific questions.
Feb 25, 2021 at 20:15 comment added Kevin B Using the meta effect to try and get actions taken that you deem appropriate is no better than the three users allegedly coordinating to take actions they deem appropriate
Feb 25, 2021 at 19:37 comment added akrun @Broccoli Same 3 persons deleted another one today as here
Feb 25, 2021 at 13:06 comment added Ian Kemp @Vaccano Your question did not get "attacked", it was analyzed and was found wanting. That is curation, not an attack, and the fact that you are apparently unable to distinguish between the two suggests to me that you don't understand question quality and/or the need to keep it high.
Feb 25, 2021 at 7:15 comment added NoDataDumpNoContribution @Vaccano " If not, a bit more friendliness may be in order. " Friendliness is always a good idea, but in this case we simply should make up or mind if deleting duplicate targets is a good or bad idea and then act accordingly.
Feb 25, 2021 at 3:08 comment added Broccoli @Vaccano I don't think "friendliness" should factor into things at all. Remember, we're not a help forum. I'd prefer to measure whether a post is a net gain to have on the site or not - a test that many of the deleted posts pass, IMO. Extreme caution is good - albeit it should not be overpowering.
Feb 25, 2021 at 2:18 comment added Vaccano I admit that I (a fairly high rep user) am afraid to post questions in the regex tag. My first question in that tag got attacked (and I deleted it). I was a ~30K rep user at the time. Since then I have felt that you needed to be really really sure you had an extra extra good and worthy question before posting one in the regex tag. (Basically, if a tag could be considered "unfriendly", then that tag is. If that level of caution and fear is what SO wants to foster on the regex tag (in the name of question quality) then it is all good. If not, a bit more friendliness may be in order.
Feb 24, 2021 at 22:26 comment added 41686d6564 @Trilarion Exactly my thoughts. This seems to be the whole point of the post. Even Wiktor said that it would be "real added value" if the community reached a consensus on best practices for this matter. I'm not sure why some users see this post as an attack or as one with an agenda. I mean we've all seen "attacklike posts" before and they look nothing like this. I really appreciate the OP keeping a civil, non-aggressive tone throughout the post and I also appreciate Wiktor being open to feedback.
Feb 24, 2021 at 21:53 comment added NoDataDumpNoContribution "I highly recommend readders to, please read this meta post once. Should duplicates be deleted? In general, no: most duplicates stay around... " It seems the community is divided on that. Some try to delete duplicates, others not. It probably wouldn't hurt to try to reach a consensus which can then be controlled.
Feb 24, 2021 at 16:25 comment added MattDMo Wiktor's behavior/reputation has actively dissuaded me from participating more in the regex tag, for fear of taking the time to research and write a good answer to a good question, only to have it closed/deleted out from under me. I mean, why bother?
Feb 24, 2021 at 11:02 comment added 0Valt Despite not liking the notion of blaming the OP for posting anonymously (this is a discussion on moderation patterns - I can't see how the poster's identity could help apart from inciting even more drama should they have a history of bad blood between them), I must admit that the anonymity of the poster and the "offending" user is not on the same level - despite not being named, it is extremely easy to figure out who the counterparty is from the abundance of examples provided.
Feb 24, 2021 at 10:51 comment added Ian Kemp @Scratte The OP doesn't have to do anything. But if they want this appeal to authority (because that's what it is) to succeed, they need to be credible. And choosing to obscure their identity and the identity of the person they believe is behaving badly, for no apparent reason, decreases their credibility in my eyes, at least.
Feb 24, 2021 at 10:48 comment added Ian Kemp @Scratte How would naming names make a Meta question less general? The important thing is the conclusion that Meta arrives at through consensus, which sets a precedent for handling future incidents of the same type. And arriving at such a conclusion is made unnecessarily difficult by the lack of detail presented here.
Feb 24, 2021 at 10:35 comment added Scratte @IanKemp How about that the fact that no one was named, can make this post general enough to apply to any similar cases? Also, you're arguing that the poster should just name themselves and take the backlash and just live with it, because.. that would be easier on you. I'm going to guess they also carefully considered the pros and cons of doing it anonymous and I do not see why they should explain their reasons to you. If you think that "why" is more important than "what", then I don't agree at all. We should not judge a post on who posted it.
Feb 24, 2021 at 10:19 comment added Ian Kemp @Scratte In short: the OP's intentions here may be pure as snow, but the fact that they've gone to such lengths to make something that should have been simple, incredibly convoluted, makes me (rightly or wrongly) suspect ulterior motives. It is, after all, far cleaner on the hands to incite a mob to be judge, jury and executioner than it is to do the dirty work yourself - especially if, as on the Internet, you can hide your identity so that there's no possibility of tracing the incitement back to you.
Feb 24, 2021 at 10:17 comment added Ian Kemp @Scratte Then there's the fact that the "offender" wasn't explicitly named either, leading to people having to themselves figure out that person's identity. That's a waste of our time, full stop, and has potential negative ramifications if someone is wrongly identified (see: reddit and the Boston bomber for an extremely egregious example). Since the OP is already posting from a sockpuppet, there's zero need for them to avoid naming the "offender"; the only reasons I can think of for that obfuscation are negative ones.
Feb 24, 2021 at 10:10 comment added Ian Kemp @Scratte If you're going to argue that people aren't inherently going to speculate on the identity of someone choosing to explicitly conceal that identity, I'd going to argue that you need to take a course in the fundamentals of human psychology. This is a question about human behaviour, not about a block of code; knowing the "who" is important for understanding the "why", and that "why" is often as or more important than the topic presented.
Feb 24, 2021 at 9:56 comment added Scratte @IanKemp So.. meta users actively choosing to speculate on who the posting user is, is actually due to the poster causing drama? That sound a lot like "See what you made me do!" :D
Feb 24, 2021 at 9:08 comment added Ian Kemp @zcoop98 The whole notion of "retaliation" is ridiculous, though. How does one "retaliate" against another Stack Overflow user? By downvoting their posts for no reason? By voting to undo their moderation actions? In such a case, the aggrieved party can do exactly what should have been done here - raise a moderator flag to get it addressed. This method is an egregious waste of everyone's time that has caused far more drama than necessary, and I have to wonder if that wasn't actually the point all along.
Feb 24, 2021 at 7:39 comment added cs95 I think it was pretty clearly laid out that not all closures here were open and shut - especially when language specific regex questions are closed as duplicates of generic regex question where the regex is not the only component of the answer. Sure there is a need for better tools but my point is overaggressive closure is not the answer to that problem, nor is our frustration to this knee jerk moderation unjustified. Thanks.
Feb 24, 2021 at 7:25 comment added gnat sure they're not the only one. Thorough cleanup of a tag like regex would naturally be noticed (and apparently perceived as painful) by many of those losing rep gained by answering obvious duplicate questions. Although I wouldn't fall in same "toxicum" trap and blame them - because main reason for such a friction is apparent inability of the company to invest effort in this long known issue despite multiple complaints and proposals to improve things
Feb 24, 2021 at 6:49 comment added cs95 @gnat my motive is openly out, and detailed in the OP - it isn't like Broccoli here is the only one who's noticed this pattern of destructive behavior or had their answers deleted because of it.
Feb 24, 2021 at 6:47 comment added gnat @cs95 every time I see people using reductio ad toxicum I have a feeling that it covers an attack with some utterior hidden motive - typically when they have no ground to engage in productive discussion
Feb 24, 2021 at 0:44 answer added Wiktor Stribiżew timeline score: 33
Feb 23, 2021 at 23:45 comment added Broccoli @00110001 Absolutely. See Of course, if a question has been asked many times already... Some of the questions that get deleted are in this category, and cleaning up the site by removing such redundant questions is just fine and should happen more.
Feb 23, 2021 at 23:38 comment added TheGeneral Just a note on the all sign posts are good thing. Sign posts are good, until you have 1000s of the linked by dubious titles pointing every which way, then they become noise and worse than useless. Just saying
Feb 23, 2021 at 20:29 comment added Braiam @zcoop98 haven't you seen the UK parliament? They have a rule about civility, yet they can also say that "[t]he intellectual power of the president is protozoan". Respect on the other hand, wouldn't allow anyone to say that, if it wasn't true. That's why some people reject courtesy and civility, because they perceive those that use them as fake and dishonest.
Feb 23, 2021 at 20:14 comment added zcoop98 @KevinB Which, I'd argue, is exactly why OP structured this post as they did; this entire post appears, to me, to be clearly phrased and structured as to not be an attack. Why go to this trouble of being so civil and in-depth if their purpose was just to attack a one-off user? They've already admitted that their motive was to avoid retaliation in a tag that they're active in, which seems very justified to me.
Feb 23, 2021 at 19:59 comment added Kevin B Not knowing the author eliminates our ability to establish bias by looking through their previous interactions with said users or their usage of the tags in question. It turns it into a very one sided attack
Feb 23, 2021 at 19:59 answer added Sayse timeline score: 20
Feb 23, 2021 at 19:43 comment added Thom A I would agree, if the OP didn't make claims they contribute when they clearly don't, @TylerH . Each user is meant to be independent, which means that they can't be claiming on this account to be having problems with someone they likely, on this account, have had no interactions with. I know who the author isx they are broccoli, no one else; and they have made no answers on Stack Overflow.
Feb 23, 2021 at 19:01 comment added TylerH @Larnu The post's credibility should not be affected by who the author is. I think this question, like any question, can stand (or not) on its own merits.
Feb 23, 2021 at 17:02 comment added Kevin B I don't think anything of value was lost here.
Feb 23, 2021 at 16:52 answer added akrun timeline score: 84
Feb 23, 2021 at 16:33 comment added Gimby @cigien agreed, if it is dealt with only behind the scenes then nobody really gets the opportunity to see this and realise they're part of a problem.
Feb 23, 2021 at 16:31 answer added Ian Kemp timeline score: -32
Feb 23, 2021 at 14:42 comment added Braiam @cigien I actually find questioning OP motives, considering that meta reactionary is pretty much fait accompli when framed in such a way: this user is doing evil by deleting many questions (despite the fact that less than 2% of all deletions on the site, so there's too much slack).
Feb 23, 2021 at 14:37 answer added Braiam timeline score: 24
Feb 23, 2021 at 14:24 comment added cigien @rene I can't speak for the OP's motives, but I can think of some reasons why a Meta post is useful in addition to raising a flag. The user in question, and possibly other users who engage in such behavior, may not know that what they're doing is controversial. Discussing this on Meta gives the community an opportunity to discuss whether such behavior is problematic, and a consensus might emerge either way. The users who do this might realize the issues, and change their behavior according to the consensus. Only raising a flag means the other users never even realize there might be an issue.
Feb 23, 2021 at 12:37 comment added Pac0 Don't remove the signposts! Thanks for posting this.
Feb 23, 2021 at 9:44 comment added rene @yivi yeah, from these examples a pattern emerges that makes it mod material. Not because I think the user being targeted is wrong, just for the fact that I doubt we get all the data, all the insight, all the raised flags, all the history that is needed to make the right call here. We (us mortals) are not the right audience, unless there is some "hidden" agenda.
Feb 23, 2021 at 9:36 comment added Thom A Because the OP has used a sockpuppet, it renders their statement "I like to share my knowledge with others through answers." pretty moot, and ends up feeling like the OP lacks the "credentials" (for lack of a better word) on the site to be able to make some of these claims. Especially when many new users don't understand the close and delete processes, and why they happen. This user has never contributed an answer.
Feb 23, 2021 at 9:34 comment added yivi @rene I find it distasteful, particularly when it looks like a disguised call to arms. Also seems to have some similarities with questions posted by other users (both regular and socks) in the last weeks. I find it distracting. But in any case, I still think this is flag material, not meta material.
Feb 23, 2021 at 9:23 comment added rene @yivi I got a bit tired of the backslash from last time I posted a question on Meta ...
Feb 23, 2021 at 9:11 history edited Tomerikoo CC BY-SA 4.0
added 8 characters in body
Feb 23, 2021 at 8:41 comment added yivi And what's up with the trend of minting socks to post in meta?
Feb 23, 2021 at 8:41 comment added yivi While I can agree with the sentiment, to a certain extent, this is so focused in one single user (or maybe two, if one looks at the patterns), that it feels like it could be better material for a mod flag than a meta post. Like this looks a bit like like a veiled call for pitchforks and torches.
Feb 23, 2021 at 8:21 answer added Cerbrus timeline score: 52
Feb 23, 2021 at 7:01 history edited 0Valt CC BY-SA 4.0
added 90 characters in body
Feb 23, 2021 at 6:32 history edited 0Valt CC BY-SA 4.0
fixed minor mistakes
Feb 23, 2021 at 5:56 history edited Broccoli CC BY-SA 4.0
Rolling back
Feb 23, 2021 at 5:53 history edited anubhava CC BY-SA 4.0
added 256 characters in body; edited tags
Feb 23, 2021 at 5:27 comment added 41686d6564 @oguzismail I do appreciate the effort he puts into curating the tag as well as his useful content. There's no question that his answers are of great value. That being said, I also can't help but notice the pattern of deleting valuable content as demonstrated in this post.
Feb 23, 2021 at 5:20 comment added anubhava too localized, and thus can not be helpful to anyone is a slippery rope with every reader having a different opinion on that. We can never guess how a question may help a future visitor dealing with similar (if not same) problem, not to forget it's added SEO value. Keeping a dupe is fine if question has been answered already but deletion is unwarranted.
Feb 23, 2021 at 5:15 comment added oguz ismail I really appreciate the effort Wiktor puts into curating the regex tag. Majority of the questions with that tag are too localized, and thus can not be helpful to anyone but the question authors. I don't think closing and deleting them cause any loss of value at all.
Feb 23, 2021 at 5:01 comment added anubhava I highly recommend readders to, please read this meta post once. Should duplicates be deleted? In general, no: most duplicates stay around. Having multiple copies of the same question with different wording is useful as search fodder, because people looking for an answer may use different wording too.
Feb 23, 2021 at 4:46 history became hot meta post
Feb 23, 2021 at 4:30 comment added akuzminykh Are you asking in general or about this specific case? Because the title and the ending of the question is general and the rest is about a specific case. I'd prefer to discuss a specific case, mention that it's about regex, mention the user, mention how the "tag-community" is maybe special in the behaviour, mention how the technology should be potentially handled differently and so on. I feel like after reading that there is much diffuse information, finished by the question "Is this sort of deletion behavior an acceptable use of one's privileges?": In general, obviously not.
Feb 23, 2021 at 3:33 comment added cigien My stomach sank when I saw the title, but reading through the post I have to say I'm impressed with how you've presented the question; it can be hard to discuss the actions of a specific user while also keeping the tone civil, and open to feedback. Well done.
Feb 23, 2021 at 3:29 comment added 41686d6564 Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I will just say that just by reading the title, I guessed the relevant tag... and I was right.
Feb 23, 2021 at 3:28 history edited cigien CC BY-SA 4.0
Edited to use the commonly used term; edited tags
Feb 23, 2021 at 3:15 history asked Broccoli CC BY-SA 4.0