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Dec 3, 2020 at 8:32 comment added Holger @CodyGray just to make that clear, I’m not saying that closing for wrong reasons was a good thing. I’m saying that it happens all days and I was surprised that a moderator was not aware of that. This is the first question I saw today. Close because “needs to be more focused”. Is it truly asking multiple questions at once? I strongly disagree. It lacks research, as similar questions have been asked before, it’s also not an actual programming problem, but today, neither is an actual close reason on this site. So that’s what happens.
Dec 2, 2020 at 8:52 comment added Holger @CodyGray Shog9 was not commenting on an actual example that was missing a question mark or such alike. The comment is clearly responding to Matt’s scenario that was described without saying how the original post was formulated. I cite: “he's asking us to fix his code and do the debugging for him”. Yes, asking. And Shog9 concludes that such “asking” still is not a question. By violating the “how to ask” rules, Shog9 has also linked. It seems, you are trying very hard to misinterpret that. But even if users were misinterpreting the last six years, it still explains what happened and why.
Dec 2, 2020 at 8:40 comment added Cody Gray Mod That only applies if it's not a question. This is clearly a question. Very hard to see how you misinterpreted that. @Holger
Dec 2, 2020 at 8:36 comment added Holger @CodyGray thank your for the link. So here, Shog9 is literally saying, “Unclear” is the right close reason for all “Do the work for me” questions (because they aren’t questions) or for any violation of the “How to ask” rules in general. Six years ago. By a moderator. Case closed.
Dec 2, 2020 at 6:03 comment added Cody Gray Mod @Holger I didn't forget about that close reason. That was never the meaning nor intended use of the "lacks minimal understanding" close reason. It was more akin to the "too broad" reason that replaced it, namely that what the asker needed was a basic tutorial on programming, which is far too broad to be provided in our Q&A format. Related: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/258062
Dec 2, 2020 at 5:50 comment added Cody Gray Mod @AsteroidsWithWings Not sure about you, but I've never received payment for any help that I've provided here, nor paid anyone for help that I received from them, so I think that saying we offer the service of "free help" is perfectly accurate. Whether you personally answer questions for altruistic reasons is of no matter. People come here to get answers to their programming questions for free, and, whether you like it or not, that's what they get.
Nov 27, 2020 at 19:22 comment added Scratte @AsteroidsWithWings Depends on how you see it. If you didn't post the Question, you'd only need to spend a week, 6 months or a decade to find out yourself. If you post, you hope that someone will answer.. for free. How is that not a "free ride"? Did it cost anything other than you've spent time to create the post? I'm not even sure self-answers are less free. Most hobbies are expensive, unless it's stuff like "taking walks" ;)
Nov 27, 2020 at 19:16 comment added Asteroids With Wings @Scratte Absolutely! So then why is a moderator claiming that "literally everyone who asks for help on a Q&A site is hoping to get a free ride"? When, in fact, literally anyone who asks for help and is also a contributor, has absolutely no such hope, and it's frankly offensive to claim that they do.
Nov 27, 2020 at 18:36 comment added Scratte @AsteroidsWithWings I think you didn't reply to any comment I made, because I have no idea where that came from. But.. they do it because they like it. If they didn't like it, they wouldn't do it. It's like a hobby. That's their return.. humans don't just do something unless it brings them something back. Whatever it is, it's there.
Nov 27, 2020 at 18:33 comment added Asteroids With Wings Cody also said "That's precisely the service we provide: free help", a statement which contains so many dangerously misleading misapprehensions about this site that I don't even quite know where to begin. It's honestly staggering.
Nov 27, 2020 at 18:31 comment added Asteroids With Wings @Scratte It is absolutely not correct. The majority of contributors here, or rather the contributors who contribute the majority, do it for altruistic or educational reasons and get very little back in return. What sort of "free ride" are they getting, or hoping to get, exactly? Complete nonsense.
Nov 27, 2020 at 12:06 comment added Holger @CodyGray there was a close reason “OP must show a minimal understanding of the topic” and ignorance toward the available documentation is closely connected to that. Stackoverflow is not meant to replace documentation. There was an attempt to create such a documentation site and is has been abandoned, you remember? Stackoverflow is not that site. Besides that, this site has always been ignorant toward actual close reasons. When I vote to close because X and other people vote to close because Y, my name will be displayed with the “closed because Y” message despite I never gave that reason.
Nov 27, 2020 at 11:59 comment added Cody Gray Mod @AlbertVilaCalvo That phrase you quoted didn't come out of a moderator's mouth, and doesn't reflect the mindset of the moderators. Moderators have diamonds after their user names.
Nov 27, 2020 at 11:57 comment added Cody Gray Mod @Holger There was never any close reason even remotely resembling the one people are claiming to be exercising here ("too simple"; "covered by documentation"; "OP is too lazy"; etc.), so, yes, I'm surprised people are inventing new close reasons in their head and using existing close reasons as a proxy for that. Not only am I surprised, but I'm horrified, because that's straight-up admitting abuse of their privileges. If it's naive for me to assume that people would not misuse privileges given to them, then I am naive. And I will continue to be naive. But jeez, this is embarrassing.
Nov 27, 2020 at 11:40 comment added Albert Vila Calvo "It means you will be subjectively closing questions, and that's ok" - Astonishing, I can't believe this is real. In my opinion moderators do more harm than good, and this mindset clearly explains why.
Nov 27, 2020 at 6:38 comment added Passer By @Scratte There's always a hypothetical cost/benefit analysis telling you when it is OK to ask a question on SO. The cost is the collective time spent by the asker, answerer and the curators. The benefit is the time saved by the asker and all future visitors. It's obviously not practical to calculate, but there's a rhyme and reason to the whole thing.
Nov 26, 2020 at 21:33 comment added Scratte @AsteroidsWithWings It is however correct. Anyone can just research enough to become an expert themselves. Then they'd have no need to ask any Question at all, ever. Just spend a few years and anyone will get there. So when exactly is it OK to ask or even find a Question on Stack? After a week, a month, 6 months? Should the site be only for experts? Or should new learners also be able to find anything useful here?
Nov 26, 2020 at 20:26 comment added Asteroids With Wings "literally everyone who asks for help on a Q&A site is hoping to get a free ride" I... what? I cannot believe this came out of a moderator's ~mouth~ fingertips.
Nov 26, 2020 at 15:27 comment added Holger @CodyGray Really? You were not aware that whenever the site owners removed a close reason, the community started to use one (or two) of the remaining close reasons as a placeholder for the old? Seems impressively naïve.
Nov 26, 2020 at 9:25 comment added Passer By @CodyGray To be clear, I don't care if "the OP is too damn lazy". I'm saying "the internet won't become a better place" by answering the question.
Nov 26, 2020 at 8:37 comment added ead @CodyGray, you are right. I'm not advocating to stretch the meaning of close-reasons - I just completely understand why somebody would do so. I'm personally just ignoring such questions, as it is the only sane option in the current framework. And even if I don't break any rules, my position is more damaging to SO than people stretching those rules by closing such question giving wrong close-reasons.
Nov 26, 2020 at 7:03 comment added Cody Gray Mod @ead Only one side broke the rules here. There's no rule about the amount of research required, and literally everyone who asks for help on a Q&A site is hoping to get a free ride. That's precisely the service we provide: free help.
Nov 26, 2020 at 7:02 comment added ead @CodyGray we might not have "the OP is lazy"-close reason de jure, but it should not be surprising that de facto we have (it is just human nature to push back, when seeing somebody trying to get a free ride). Both sides break the rules: OP by not doing enough research, close voters by not performing the search for duplicate. With the current system setup, this is bound to happen. Btw, the linked comment of mine seems to come across as accusatory of SO or as if I would know better and propose a new close reason to save the system - it isn't (ok, maybe the accusatory part a little bit...)
Nov 26, 2020 at 4:07 comment added Cody Gray Mod @Alexei I haven't set up any filters. Still trying to process this. I was completely unaware that people were broadening the meaning of the close reasons like this, and it does bother me. There is a very good reason that we don't have "the OP is too damn lazy" as a close reason, and it has nothing to do with the site not caring about veteran users and/or needing to cater to new users. I couldn't care less about any "welcoming" initiatives, but would fight tooth and nail to block close reason like the ones being applied here.
Nov 25, 2020 at 21:15 comment added Alexei Levenkov @PasserBy roman numeral would be definitely duplicate and no one would question that. It's complicated enough to not look off-topic and answered enough times for all languages to be safe duplicate - so I doubt we'd have such a long thread to talk about downvote/upvote/close/answer options.
Nov 25, 2020 at 21:14 comment added Alexei Levenkov @PasserBy if I'm in trolling mood I'd close as duplicate of something like stackoverflow.com/questions/1996658/… (now Cody Gray is likely already setting up filter to hunt such voters based on comment to another answer)... but otherwise possibly downvote and skip.
Nov 25, 2020 at 21:09 comment added Passer By @AlexeiLevenkov "how to multiply two ints" in the simplest sense, that the asker literally don't know that * is the multiply symbol instead of x. Do you answer that? Or if that's not enough, suppose the asker is brought up with roman numerals and is asking how to get a number in their program.
Nov 25, 2020 at 21:04 comment added Alexei Levenkov @PasserBy "how to multiply to ints" and similar "how to divide two ints" are actually quite hard problems for many people. We do have good answers for basically each language that have separate floating point numeric types to at least one of those... But indeed closing basic "homework: input two whole numbers and print result of sum and multiplication" as duplicate of such answers would be pure trolling... Downvote is much more applicable.
Nov 25, 2020 at 20:54 comment added Passer By @cigien "used to be a close reason" that's the non-ideal part of the world. "Everything is solvable by googling, by some definition", definition is exactly what I'm not going for. There is a continuum of difficulty to solve problems by googling. It cuts off somewhere, we make our best judgement, we don't define it. We will disagree, which is why it's a voting system. At some point along this continuum you will be arguing for the absurd: "how do I multiply two ints?"
Nov 25, 2020 at 19:15 comment added cigien @PasserBy No, "lmgtfy" is not a close reason, however politely phrased. If I understand correctly, this used to be a close reason, and was removed because it's very hard to objectively judge. Everything is solvable by "googling", by some definition, and it is simply not SO policy to make that judgement. You are welcome to feel like those questions should be closed, but note that your use of any particular close reasons to do so, is at best incorrect, and is probably a misuse of the close vote privilege.
Nov 25, 2020 at 19:08 comment added cigien @VLAZ Yes, I did check whether the question is a dupe. I mentioned that both on the post, and in SOCVR. I couldn't find an appropriate target. If you do, please consider voting to close with that reason.
Nov 25, 2020 at 8:41 comment added VLAZ @Adriaan I think this answer tries to get across "as somebody who moderates and curates the site". Yes, "moderator" usually means a diamond mod but we all have the ability to moderate the site. The label isn't wrong. It's just not worth using most of the times as people actually mean "diamond moderator" when they use it. I think contextually it fits perfectly fine.
Nov 25, 2020 at 8:33 comment added Passer By @cigien The close criteria for the question should be "lmgtfy". Since we can't get that across politely, we settle for other reasons that may be inaccurate. Your comment listing of questions are a) written in early SO b) not equivalent to your question c) written when documentation might be harder to find. They aren't the same.
Nov 25, 2020 at 8:23 comment added Adriaan OP is not a moderator; only the people listed here are. Those have a diamond attached to their name, have (much) more power than us mere mortals.
Nov 25, 2020 at 8:07 comment added VLAZ @cigien however, let's leave my opinion on topicality aside. Assuming "how to write a for loop" (or "how to write a for loop going in reverse") is indeed on-topic, I'd find it very surprising if this is the first question SO about it for a tag as large as C++. So, if it's indeed on-topic, would it really be worth it asking again just because a low effort question about this was deleted? Have you checked if yours is the first (non-deleted) question about this?
Nov 25, 2020 at 8:02 comment added VLAZ @cigien for-each loops in Java in reverse aren't really the same as a regular for loop in reverse, as the latter is only based on decrementing a variable. Something you should hopefully know if you know how to increment a variable. And you'd know how to increment by one if you cover the basics of for loops. Many tutorials I've seen even cover reverse loops, too. The answers to the Java question make it clear it's a not a trivial code change to make it work, nor is it something covered when looking up for-each loops.
Nov 25, 2020 at 7:26 comment added cigien @VLAZ Have you looked at the code in my question? It's asking how to write a specific loop that iterates a counter in reverse, which is one of the examples in your comment. You are the one who characterized it as "how do I write a for loop" in your first comment on the question.
Nov 25, 2020 at 7:07 comment added VLAZ @cigien I disagree on "similar". Most aren't even "how do I write a for loop" - they are a lot more specific than that and tackle a specific problem like "I know I can do a for-each loop but how do I do it backwards", or "how do I loop over properties of objects". Stuff not typically found in the first pages of a tutorial of a language. "How do I write a for loop" should be very well covered by entry level introductions to programming. I don't think it's SO's job to do entry level teaching. However, if a user has a specific problem with expressing the for loop, we can help.
Nov 25, 2020 at 3:12 comment added cigien My concerns in this post is that the close criteria appear to be too subjective. Note that every possible close reason other than Dupe, General Computing, and Server Fault, have been used to justify closing this question. This suggests a major disagreement on whether this question is off-topic and why. I feel that we need more objectivity when it comes to close reasons. I'm not saying we should be robots, but a little more objectivity and consistency can't hurt. Also, I don't agree with the "completely useless" part. See my second comment on my question with listing similar questions.
Nov 25, 2020 at 2:39 history answered Passer By CC BY-SA 4.0