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Aug 12, 2021 at 21:25 comment added jpmc26 @Peter-ReinstateMonica [cont] ... You must be able to identify what details are important and which are irrelevant, narrowing the question down to the bare minimum of information you need. You must come razor close to answering it yourself. But developing the expertise to do that without formulating questions and getting help is somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible. That doesn't in any way justify SO's turn against veteran experts who are trying to maintain quality, of course, but we equally shouldn't be too glib about how hard writing a truly good question is.
Aug 12, 2021 at 21:23 comment added jpmc26 @Peter-ReinstateMonica I know this is a year too late, but I had occasion to happen across this today. I disagree. I regard the question discussed here as low quality because the user has come into it with so many different misconceptions. They don't seem to have a good grasp of the material they're asking about, and that makes providing an answer less than useful unless you're willing to spend an inordinate amount of time explaining things. To write a really good question, you must already have significant expertise in the topic. ... [cont]
Jun 12, 2020 at 13:57 comment added user11567957 All this applies the whole of SO/SE. It's worse than Wikipedia these days.
Jun 11, 2020 at 13:17 comment added Tim Consolazio People get too caught up in the punitive "rules". I see it all the time; a question may not be perfectly formed or provide well-formed code, etc, but if you just read it, you can figure what the poster needs. But inevitably somebody just downvotes and starts posting links to rules. Classic D&D "rules lawyer." Somebody more concerned with demonstrating knowledge of the rules than playing the game. If you don't like a question, ignore it. A completely ignored question is just as valid a statement. There's too many "dupe and rule hammers" out there for my liking, it frequently turns me off to SO.
Jun 9, 2020 at 12:32 comment added Peter - Reinstate Monica True, but the debugging/"how do I program this homework" questions are the most annoying ones, and frequent. Other questions can be more tricky, true. But I wouldn't be too afraid of downvoted questions. The annoying questions are those lacking prior research or the information we need to answer them; either requirement is self-understood in any context and missing them is a sign of lacking diligence, unrelated to SO. All others may be turfed elsewhere or perhaps closed as opinion based, or you missed a dup (happened to me) -- that's usually not a problem.
Jun 9, 2020 at 12:11 comment added Scratte Nothing @Peter-ReinstateMonica. You're talking about simple debugging Questions. It's all the other types of Questions that are tricky: Like how-to Questions. Sometimes they get a score of -12 and are deleted outright. Other times users are fighting over whether or not to close them or open them. Other times they are highly upvoted. This is very confusing. And what exactly do I need to have tried if I want to ask a how-to Question? Can I ask a Question about what is the difference between A and B? Or how do I improve on this code? Or can I get this error in other circumstances than X?
Jun 9, 2020 at 12:04 comment added Peter - Reinstate Monica It's funny: I cannot relate to your woes. The general idea of what constitutes a valuable question is not hard to grasp and is not surprising. It certainly does not require hours of Meta crawling. For coding questions, the vast majority, the rules are very general (not at all SO specific): Don't expect us to do your work; do not ask what's been asked before (lmgtfy); and then the usually necessary core information: Input, expected output, actual result, any diagnosis, and an example if possible. And, yes, you need to have tried something. What about that is hard?
Jun 8, 2020 at 10:17 comment added Scratte @Pureferret That is a separate thing. It's not helping new users to just tell them that their contributions are bad. They need to know why and what to do, and it would help them to learn before they make the contributions through better information. Keeping their posts locked and pending until they are fit may also discourage "I'm feeling lucky"-type Questions and reduce the huge amount of posts that should have been closed, but never were. A lot of those posts have answers that often starts with "I think this is what you want..."
Jun 8, 2020 at 10:08 comment added AncientSwordRage meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366889/… seems relevant
Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 history edited CommunityBot
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Apr 9, 2020 at 16:39 history edited David Buck CC BY-SA 4.0
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Apr 9, 2020 at 16:32 history edited EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine CC BY-SA 4.0
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Apr 2, 2020 at 19:35 comment added jpmc26 And that's fair. No one grasped everything the first time they posted. That's partly why I'm open to a sort of two tiered system for SO. Atwood wrote about it not all that long ago. It seems like what people need is a space to ground themselves, where questions would only be "off-topic" if they're inherently unanswerable, and not having to worry about duplication and curation and all that, so that they can just develop the skill, both of writing questions and the site topic. As people "get it," then they're qualified to help with curation.
Apr 2, 2020 at 19:28 comment added Scratte @jpmc26 Thank you :) I think you're right about getting intuition. I just don't think it can be achieved without experience. Often when I ask a Question, I get a link to a document. I try to remember what I read and apply it, but I'm too "young" yet to have it settled in me. I also see lots of Questions that I feel are good, but then someone tells that they're not in scope here. So I need to work on it :)
Apr 2, 2020 at 19:28 comment added jpmc26 [cont] Compare with math, physics, or programming. You don't memorize every last solution, every equation of motion, or every combination of algorithm steps. You learn the basic principles and tools, and then you practice building new answers out of them. How to judge whether a question is on topic is similar: you understand the site's goals, and then you evaluate a specific question in light of whether it's achieving them or hindering them.
Apr 2, 2020 at 19:24 comment added jpmc26 [cont] ... What's important is that we have shared basic principles, and there is a large degree of consensus on those. They are also largely encoded in the Help (or at least used to be) and maybe a scant few important blog or Meta posts, but I would agree they could be made plainer. What's really confusing now is that SO itself seems to have largely rejected those core principles over the past year or so, so it's not surprising you're confused. Anyway, work on boiling down all the things you've read to a set of core principles that leads you to the conclusions you're seeing on Meta. [cont]
Apr 2, 2020 at 19:18 comment added jpmc26 There's a lot here that's worth listening to. If SO was presenting something like this as an issue that needs to be resolved, I think we as a community would feel a whole lot more respected and would have a lot more to contribute to fixing it. That said, I do think you're somewhat... off-track. Rather than hunt down every last rule and keep hundreds of pages of notes, you need to focus on instead understanding the core principles and developing your intuition about how to apply them. Quality is inherently subjective, so it's okay if we disagree on particular examples. ... [cont]
Apr 2, 2020 at 4:56 comment added philipxy @einpoklum Although you focus in your 1st comment on this answer on SO knowledge as something learned via using the meta.SO site, the key issue of this post is that users are not exposed to the SO site rules. Scratte has learned via meta.SO, but the point is that SO users should be appropriately exposed to SO protocols without taking a meta.so route. Presumably most likely via feedback.
Apr 1, 2020 at 22:32 comment added Ian Kemp @Scratte You're exactly the kind of user we want here on Stack Overflow.
Mar 30, 2020 at 23:06 comment added Travis J You are right. "Sometimes there's a consensus among experienced users" is a primary failure of the closure system as it exists today. Too many close reasons are combined, open to interpretation, or are too vague. The result is an interpretation of rules that not only creates friction in the community but also effects the quality we all clamor for. We desperately need to refactor the close reasons to be clear, concise, and not open to interpretation.
Mar 30, 2020 at 19:59 comment added Scratte @einpoklum I know about the harsh voting. I just deleted my only Question today because it's too easy a target when someone is upset with me. So I've removed it only to avoid a Question-ban. But new users are not aware of possible Question-bans, nor the requirement for quality. I think that's where the focus should go. And hiding away options, pretending that it's OK to ask a new Question (instead of fixing the old one), or presenting canned short suggestions, is the wrong way to "fix things" in my opinion. I was actually just lucky in that I already liked to present things nice and complete.
Mar 30, 2020 at 19:49 comment added einpoklum @Scratte: It took me quite a while before I started answering questions. Also, SO is very harsh relative to other SE communities when it comes to voting. Some other communities will more delicately nudge you to edit-or-delete less-useful answers, and are more likely to reward a newbie with an upvote for a half-decent question.
Mar 30, 2020 at 19:33 comment added Scratte @einpoklum I think you're right. Nobody in their right mind would ever put this much effort into a voluntary thing with little reward. But the first month I spent here I had no idea what meta was. I just answered Questions. Some of my answers were deleted with the Question and I lost my reputation on them. I didn't understand why they were removed. Some times I spent an hour getting an answer ready and just as I was about to post it, the Question got closed. I didn't understand why. I didn't ask Questions because I didn't understand why. I think that first month may be very representative..
Mar 30, 2020 at 19:28 comment added einpoklum With respect - I'm absolutely certain you (and your experience) are an exception to the rule: Most newbies asking questions which get closed don't even know what meta is and haven't gone through the tour properly if at all; and while the problem you bring up does exist, I (and probably others here) believe it is orthogonal to the rest of this discussion. Not downvoting you though. Also, I very much agree that the phenomenon of many downvotes accruing on closed questions is in itself a problem worth addressing.
Mar 30, 2020 at 7:52 history edited Scratte CC BY-SA 4.0
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Mar 29, 2020 at 22:04 comment added Scratte @philipxy In that context I feel the term irony fits to describe the downvotes :)
Mar 29, 2020 at 6:04 comment added philipxy This post captures the true issues behind well-meaning newcomers feeling unwelcomed by well-meaning oldtimers.
Mar 28, 2020 at 17:40 comment added Scratte @Makoto I'm suggesting to make it much easier to find relevant information for everyone's benefit. I don't see where I propose something that doesn't scale. The easier it is to find information and get training, the more reviewers will join in and curate.
Mar 28, 2020 at 17:12 comment added Makoto If I told you that the real problem was that people just ask questions here without having done their own homework (e.g. research), or give us a requirements dump, or give us incomplete code or problems to work with, would you then think that the problems are going to be at least somewhat redressed in this proposal? People may not like getting off on the wrong foot with asking questions, but the reality is any other approach that deals with one-on-one interaction with an OP will not scale. This solution at least scales to deal with the volume of questions we get daily.
Mar 28, 2020 at 11:32 history edited Scratte CC BY-SA 4.0
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Mar 28, 2020 at 11:21 history answered Scratte CC BY-SA 4.0