Timeline for Question Effort - What's our line in the sand?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
17 events
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Aug 16, 2019 at 15:55 | comment | added | Makoto | @Shog9: I was one of the people who celebrated its removal. Maybe this is just us talking past one another, but I am acutely aware that what I'm doing is applying some kind of heuristic. Once people start wanting hard-and-fast rules, that's when the issue really manifests itself. So, I'm not interested in recommending hard-and-fast rules. I'm recommending someone actually look deeper at the issue. Maybe "map" was the wrong phrase for it. But...I can't linger on this for much longer. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:51 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | I'm not suggesting that you do this, @Makoto - but it has repeatedly been a problem with this sort of "mapping". That "minimal understanding" close reason was never meant to be a "no effort" close reason, nor was "too localized", "too broad", "unclear" or any of the rest - but once folks get into a habit of mapping, it becomes too easy to ignore the purpose, ignore the problems (or lack thereof) and focus on the heuristic. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:48 | comment | added | Makoto | I'm not seeing that, @Shog9. The way I've always operated has been to give questions which are narrow and well-scoped the benefit of the doubt. The vast majority of the time in which I've had to go down this road has been with questions which were truly irredeemable. I still believe that I'm arguing that a question which lacks effort is a symptom of something we could legitimately close it for, which I outline above. But, now at least I understand the issue with my response... | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:44 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | The mapping is the problem, @Makoto. It leads to these awkward situations where folks are voting to close perfectly clear, narrowly-scoped questions as "too broad" because... They think the question should have shown more effort. Lack of effort is bad when the result is too broad - but deciding that "broad" is a euphemism for "short", a mapping from some other inscrutable evaluation... Ruins the whole thing. After all, what good is effort put into properly scoping your question when the real problem was someone's opinion on your lack of visible struggle? | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:42 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | I'm saying that "no effort" is a red herring. It distracts from the real problems with the post. The most obvious problem with it is that it is a statement about the poster, not the post. No mapping is required; the close reason already suffice. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:41 | comment | added | Makoto | ...you're gonna have to tell me where that's been tacitly stated. I feel like you're really nitpicking on the semantics here where I'm simply mapping "lack of effort" on to the already approved close reasons. I suppose the nit may be with my reasoning? | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:39 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | "You didn't show effort" is no better than "what have you tried." | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:39 | comment | added | Makoto | Yes, and I admitted to being a part of that eons ago, and I've decided to better myself. I still actively rail against that phrase since there's better ways to extract that information from someone, but I see the temptation to slip right back into it. I even believe we have (or have had at some point) a way to automatically delete those comments. So yeah...I'm still confused, @RobertHarvey. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:35 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | I can explain it in detail, if you like. The short version: asking "What have you tried" has (to some degree) turned Stack Overflow from a repository of programming knowledge into a troubleshooting forum. I'd much prefer a well-articulated, tightly-focused "how do I do [this thing]" question, but we can't have that, because "you didn't show your code." | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:28 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/388588/… | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:28 | comment | added | Makoto | *scratches head* But I am using the official reasons, and justifying why I'm doing so here. I'm saying that the blanket problem is a lack of effort, but 999 times out of 1,000 it can cleanly map to a close reason we have already established. Not sure where you're going with this now, @RobertHarvey... | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:25 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | Maybe not what you said, but every time I see this on main, I also see the implied swipe. It's better to stick to the official close reasons. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:23 | comment | added | Makoto | @RobertHarvey: My fear is that everyone is taking semantics a little too literally and is missing the forest for the trees. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:22 | comment | added | Makoto | Two things there @RobertHarvey: I don't recall calling anyone "lazy" or any variant thereof when dealing with their questions. I've simply dealt with them, and haven't really read much deeper than the immediate problem. Second, by definition, saying that someone's question is a duplicate would imply that they're lazy because they didn't search for it; a question which is unclear would imply that they're unable to communicate clearly enough; a question which is too broad would imply that they're not focused. All of those could be considered insults. None of them are what I said. | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:19 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | "Lack of Effort" means calling people lazy. I doubt that passes muster with the CoC. Use the other terms you've detailed in your answer instead, like "Too Broad," "Unclear What you are Asking," and "Duplicate Of." | |
Aug 16, 2019 at 15:06 | history | edited | Makoto | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 228 characters in body
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Aug 16, 2019 at 14:28 | history | answered | Makoto | CC BY-SA 4.0 |