Timeline for Experiment (ENDED): closing and reopening happens at 3 votes for the next 30 days
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
46 events
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Aug 24, 2019 at 14:08 | comment | added | S.S. Anne | Can we please stop this? We're not going to get anywhere by attacking each other. | |
Aug 22, 2019 at 15:10 | comment | added | Zhigalin | I even saw people not reading the question before voting to close as dup... | |
Aug 22, 2019 at 15:08 | comment | added | Zhigalin | @AndrasDeak yet these are quite a few people who are not letting their lacking domain knowledge stop them from closing as unclear or too broad | |
S Aug 19, 2019 at 8:03 | history | notice removed | CommunityBot | ||
S Aug 19, 2019 at 8:03 | history | unlocked | CommunityBot | ||
S Aug 12, 2019 at 7:24 | history | notice added | user3956566 | Comments only | |
S Aug 12, 2019 at 7:24 | history | locked | user3956566 | ||
Aug 9, 2019 at 13:09 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | I agree with this answer that it potentially could increase new user attrition because more questions get closed. However, it's an experiment. Let's wait for the numbers and discuss the impact then. Maybe it has much less effects than hoped for now or maybe three votes are still okay enough. | |
Aug 9, 2019 at 8:59 | comment | added | Luuklag | If I read your post here it bascily reads like your question was looking for some off-site resource, like a library or program to do X. That is the definition of off-topic. | |
Aug 9, 2019 at 8:59 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | @TKK you should have more faith in your peers, especially those with enough rep to cast close votes. You might be surprised that most of us are not dumb. | |
Aug 9, 2019 at 1:07 | history | undeleted |
duplode Shog9 |
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Aug 9, 2019 at 0:51 | history | deleted |
Temani Afif Ken White toolic |
via Vote | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 23:44 | comment | added | StackOverthrow | @AndrasDeak I think most people lack the metacognition to make that distinction. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:34 | comment | added | gnat | consider giving a read to Can a question with an accepted answer be closed as unanswerable | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:28 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | @Zoe when I hear "abuse" I don't think of mere disagreement, which I believe is the main driving force behind questions like the curl one. After all opinions range from "this should be deleted" through "it should be migrated elsewhere" to "this is one of our recent success stories on SO". It's just that it has high visibility, much higher than posts usually have, and everyone has an opinion. Abuse would be something else. Of course it's possible that this is just sloppy wording. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:26 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | To add a bit to @fbueckert's point: "close as unclear" doesn't include "this question is over my head". It should only include "I understand the corresponding technology and yet I have no idea what the asker is trying to ask". And any responsible close voter will vote such. I just finished 40 close vote reviews and I skipped 37 questions because I was lacking domain knowledge (even though I filtered by language). | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:26 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod | @AndrasDeak I don't think the cURL question should be used as evidence close votes are frequently abused, but more as an acknowledgement those cases exist, albeit rarely. My point was that it can be abused, but at least from personal experience, it takes a popular post or otherwise extremely public post to get enough attention and gain enough controversy to create a situation like that. Basing a system on it is overkill - we have locks for conflicts anyway. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:23 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | @Zoe meh, such isolated controversial hotspots will always appear once in a while. We shouldn't base any kind of mechanics on these. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:22 | comment | added | fbueckert | @TKK Which, again, doesn't do anything to help people understand. You see, "People close things way too fast and abuse it!". I see, "My question is super niche and obscure and nobody will understand it, but that's not my problem." See the difference? By helping people understand it, you get a far better chance that someone is able to help you. You help the site, you help yourself. That sounds like a win-win for everybody in my books. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:21 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod | @rene Not exactly CV abuse (more reopen abuse), but 'member cURL? I doubt it's wide-spread enough for most questions to be affected by it, so most users probably won't have experienced it | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:19 | comment | added | rene | Do you have examples of questions (except that anecdotal one) where close votes are heavily abused? I'm an avid close voter but I somehow never come across abused posts. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:19 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod | @TKK you're talking about abusable votes, and you recommend single reopen votes to fix it? That defeats the entire point of close votes in the first place. That lets any 3k user go on a reopen spree - anything from trash to borderline R/A or spam. That can be abused | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:19 | comment | added | StackOverthrow | @fbueckert You understand my argument correctly. And yes, we want to help more than just the asker. But all the simple questions have already been answered. From here on out, questions that add anything to the site will inevitably be obscure and difficult for most users to understand. It needs to be very difficult to close them on that basis, or it will become increasingly difficult to actually add anything to the site. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:06 | comment | added | fbueckert | Well...if you don't want your question closed...trying to help as many people understand as possible sounds pretty valuable to me. Personally, that argument sounds like, "Well, they'll never understand, so there's no point in trying", in an attempt to absolve yourself of responsibility to improve your question. Considering we're trying to help more than just the asker, that sort of perspective doesn't work in trying to build a repository of knowledge. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:05 | comment | added | StackOverthrow | @Shog9 Perhaps there shouldn't be symmetry in the number of close and reopen votes required. Three is an acceptable close threshold if a single vote can reopen. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:04 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod | in a way that's unrecognizable. Fortunately, there's also tools to reverse that, and mod flags to trigger locks for conflicts. If you want a 100% safe environment, read-only mode is the only way to do that. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:04 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod |
Close votes are already heavily abused, and this will only make things worse. - there's not enough reviewers and close votes on the site with 5 close votes required. Per 100 votes, there's a potential to close 13 more questions with 3 votes compared to 5. This will let us make a big dent in the close vote queue. And yeah, it will periodically be abused, but name one feature of the site related to content that can't. Questions, answers, and comments can be used for rudeness or spam, votes can be targeted, and users can be targeted, accounts can be hijacked, and formatting can be used
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Aug 8, 2019 at 21:03 | comment | added | StackOverthrow | @fbueckert In many cases, most people understanding is neither valuable nor realistically achievable. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 21:00 | history | edited | StackOverthrow | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 8, 2019 at 20:59 | comment | added | Shog9 | So, you might be right. But the solution there is probably better guidance for close-voters, since we already close a non-trivial portion of questions being asked. Making the task harder across the board is kinda like using a knife without being careful of where your fingers are: a dull knife just means you're applying more force when you do hit. Right now, closing is slow, tedious, hard to undo, and (as Josh Caswell noted in his answer) too many folks take a cavalier attitude to it because they think their vote is meaningless - all of that needs to change, somehow. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:59 | history | edited | StackOverthrow | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 8, 2019 at 20:51 | comment | added | fbueckert |
@TKK It's a fact of life that most things are only going to be understood by some people, and interesting things are going to be understood by very few. Sure...but that's not a reason to not try to clarify it so the most people can understand it. Changing the number of close votes won't make this easier for you; if anything, it'll just ensure unclear questions get closed that much faster. "Someone understood it, so it can't be unclear" is a pretty common defense that...almost never works. Editing, however, can help immensely.
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Aug 8, 2019 at 20:48 | comment | added | Makyen Mod | @TKK Favorites can be used for lots of different reasons. They are used by people who think a question is good, and by people who think a question is bad, and because someone lost their keys. That a question is favorited doesn't inherently imply that a question is good. It might be; it might not be. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:47 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | I don't think it's fruitful to debate here the merits of the specific question of TKK. Focus on the point they are making in their answer here. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:46 | comment | added | S.S. Anne | @TKK I think the question would be better if you create an example of what you've tried. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:42 | comment | added | StackOverthrow | @AndrasDeak It's a fact of life that most things are only going to be understood by some people, and interesting things are going to be understood by very few. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:42 | history | rollback | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні |
Rollback to Revision 2
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Aug 8, 2019 at 20:42 | history | edited | S.S. Anne | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 8, 2019 at 20:41 | comment | added | TylerH | I obviously don't know any info about the question you're referring to but it's a perfectly reasonable thing for some people to consider a question too broad and unclear and for others to disagree. Not everyone's standards or knowledge base is the same. That's why the system includes an ability to reopen questions in the first place. An ability, by the way, which is also now at 3 votes instead 5. So there's not really a meaningful change in the scenario you describe. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:40 | comment | added | S.S. Anne | Close votes are used because questions are unclear or off-topic. Improve your questions and people should stop trying to close them. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:38 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | In my personal experience most questions that are unclear are understood by some people (even worse: different people understand it differently). Having an answer that can be verified to satisfy the asker is a huge lead one can use to clarify unclear questions. More often than not the lack of clarity comes from missing requirements or missing expected output, which are typically supplemented by an appropriate answer. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:38 | history | edited | StackOverthrow | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 8, 2019 at 20:36 | comment | added | StackOverthrow | @AndrasDeak An answerer who already understands the question is probably the last person who can help clarify it, if it needs clarifying at all, which is dubious since it was so quickly understood and answered. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:34 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | If they do then it shouldn't be hard to have them reopened with 3 votes again. The answerer who figured out what you meant can probably help clarify your question, or you can look at the answer and try to look at what it focuses on to do the clarification on your own. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:34 | comment | added | Kevin B | It may have received two closevotes, sure, but there's no way of knowing how readily available reopen votes would be should it ever end up closed. With this change, it would only require 3 to reopen it. | |
Aug 8, 2019 at 20:31 | history | answered | StackOverthrow | CC BY-SA 4.0 |