Timeline for Why are a lot of users (including moderators) upset about where SO is going?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
31 events
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Oct 1, 2019 at 17:38 | comment | added | canon | You wouldn't instruct a junior programmer to fish for themselves before asking you a question? A: Presumably, your time is much more valuable than the junior's. B: You're doing a disservice to that junior and their future coworkers if you're fostering an "ask first" behavior. Like mama always said, "Look with your eyes, not with your mouth." | |
Oct 1, 2019 at 5:11 | comment | added | user128511 | it is how you mentor a new programmer. You teach them to be resourceful, you teach them to look in the docs. You teach them to read through the examples in the docs. You teach them to learn how to pair down their example into the smallest reproducible code. What you do not do it just answer their questions that they should have figured out on their own. Just giving teh codez doesn't help them. The closes, the downvotes, the comments repeating the help are all there to lead them to become better without overwhelming the volutneer answerers or making the site a complete swamp. | |
Aug 6, 2019 at 1:26 | comment | added | user773737 | regarding: "tiny-fraction of power-users vs the larger programmer community", that's a fallacy. You cannot claim that, because the upset power-users are in the minority, that ONLY the minority power-users are upset. The larger programmer community may very well be upset by these changes too. It's just that they don't come to meta and make their voices heard like the power-users do. | |
Aug 5, 2019 at 15:38 | comment | added | Gabe Sechan | The power users make up a small fraction of the community, but a large fraction of the value. The people who answer a ton of questions are why this site is useful. Alienate them (and you absolutely are), and when they leave this site will diminish and eventually die. The fact is that the people capable and willing to provide good answers here is a limited pool, once they're gone they will not be replaced. | |
Aug 5, 2019 at 15:05 | comment | added | George Stocker Mod | @LuisRico "Voting with one's feet" is how to effect change in a business. It sucks, but it's true. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do that; but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that that's how you make the most change in a business. | |
Aug 5, 2019 at 15:03 | comment | added | Luis Rico |
We can either agree with that vision and work towards it, or disagree and stop participating. . Why do companies do this so constantly, you are not giving any other choice but to leave, and losing the experienced users is worse than gaining new ones
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Aug 5, 2019 at 13:54 | history | edited | George StockerMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 3, 2019 at 0:07 | comment | added | LinkBerest - SO sold our work | @ScottHannen actually, I liked the blog post (I would have liked some more focus on tooling but it was definitely was looking at the system in a valid way). Most of us (or at least me and I think others based on my reading) are angry about how she then posted on Meta blaming us for everything she pointed to the system for causing in the blog. When someone makes a good point but then goes "but I hate you" that pretty much ends discussion | |
Aug 2, 2019 at 23:07 | history | edited | George StockerMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 2, 2019 at 14:05 | comment | added | sth | @GeorgeStocker It's been a long time, many years, since Stack Exchange focused its effort on the core premise once causing its success: Provide high quality answers. Maybe things aren't going so well because the company has been doing other things for the past >5 years. So Stack Exchange was going without a clear course for quite a while. Now they realized they are of course, but in reaction they seem to steer further away from what was the successful direction. | |
Aug 2, 2019 at 12:49 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | @GeorgeStocker you seem to assume that businesses are fully rational and conscious entities that always work toward the global optimum. I'm somewhat skeptical since businesses are led by business(wo)men, but admittedly I've never ventured into entrepreneurship. Anyway, to quote Shog: "We've been really bad at working together, as an organization, for a long time now". I know he was probably talking about the community-facing side of the company but it doesn't exactly sound like "rational utility factory" to me. | |
Aug 2, 2019 at 12:15 | comment | added | sth | "What will change things is to show that we're on board with growing stack overflow". That's what people are doing. They are convinced that the current direction the company is taking will not lead to growth and success, but the opposite. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 21:52 | comment | added | Brandon_J | George, I appreciate your response here, but I'm not sure it actually answers the question as written. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 21:09 | comment | added | Tensibai | @ScottHannen Agree, the blog post sounded like something to be optimist. The removal of HMP because 'Employees are real human beings that are affected by the way people speak to them' (source) has kind of invalidated it. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 20:06 | comment | added | Makoto | @ScottHannen: Honestly, it's fine to be optimistic. It's even built a nice road forward for the future of the site, IMO. But I'm not sure if it's just me, but it's getting awfully toasty in here... | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 16:50 | comment | added | Scott Hannen | I'm cursed with optimism. I see change with what look like good intentions. Those changes might have some unintended consequences. What I don't see is a bunch of idiots ready to kill the world's most popular website for developers out of ignorance. I don't buy it. Changes might be odd or uncomfortable or might even include mistakes, but the sky isn't falling. Those changes could also be awesome. Sara's 'bad day' blog post sounds like something to be excited about, not a reason to worry. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 16:35 | comment | added | mason | @GeorgeStocker You missed the point. I am here because I have a voice here, and I know they're here. I do not have a voice on Meta.SE. If they leave here and solely reside at Meta.SE, then I guess I'll be going there and trying to establish myself too. And if they leave there, then I'll go wherever that is until I give up on Stack Overflow or they give in and start righting the ship. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 16:28 | comment | added | mason | @RobertHarvey If they stop coming to Meta and paying attention - we'll find wherever they are looking. The past shows they listen to whining on Twitter and blog posts and Medium, so we can play that game too if we need to. For now, I know Tim and Shog and a few others are still lurking around here. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 16:25 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | @mason: That does you no good if the people to whom you're whining just give up and leave. Then you're simply left with your own echo chamber. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:53 | comment | added | mason | @Makoto Fair enough, but if they don't want to listen, I am going to continue making it uncomfortable for them. MLK Jr style. I'm open to trying other ways in addition to being vocal here. But I'm not going to give up being vocal. Sometimes parents do finally give in if their kid whines enough, and find a way to make it happen. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:51 | comment | added | Tensibai | @GeorgeStocker At the difference the kids are begging those toy so they can participate properly to build the family product so their parent can present something different than others and thus help pay the rent. (any analogy is just flawed anyway) | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:46 | comment | added | Makoto | @mason: Just a minor nit - being heard is not the same as getting your desired outcome. The company can hear us all day but choose to do something else, not unlike parents with young children walking through the toy aisle. There's no doubt in my mind that those kids and their whining is heard. Is it honored? Doesn't have to be to accomplish being heard. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:20 | comment | added | Makoto | Maybe the poison in the well is implicit in that Stack Overflow is seen simultaneously as both product and community. I know bothering the company to change their position isn't going to change much. Maybe I'm just waiting around for a formal reason to file for divorce. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:18 | comment | added | user4639281 | Questions aren't made off-topic by being simple or because the answer can be found elsewhere on the internet. We used to have a close reason for too localized but that has been gone for a very long time now. Could you please clarify: "have come to realize that keeping people out because their question is "too simple" or "they could have googled it" is not how you would mentor a junior programmer"? | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:16 | comment | added | mason | ...It's up to us to help them see that. Whether it's complaining when they come look at Meta, or organizing a strike, or taking to social media, or telling them in the face to face interviews that the company seems a little more interested in lately. I've seen a few steps in the right directions lately, so I continue to be hopeful. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:14 | comment | added | mason | To be honest, I don't know if the VC's will be able to get enough money to be satisfied, no matter what we or they do. But I do know that if they continue down this path of allowing/encouraging low quality questions, preventing us from moderating effectively, then they will end up with even less money than if they let us continue to uphold the high standards we've always had. This site without quality standards will turn into Yahoo Answers and make it difficult to find a proper solution, eliminating any value it may have had. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:11 | comment | added | Makoto | I get the impression that you've been too far out of the loop on Meta, George. What you say is accurate and true from a business perspective - I even touch on that in this answer - but that doesn't make anyone feel better about the situation. If the reality is that we as a community can no longer agree with the company's vision for what the community should be going towards, then not participating is the only logical choice. You cannot ignore the fact that we are the product, and we're not thrilled about it. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 15:04 | comment | added | mason | No, I have not been heard, because the company is still continuing down this bad path. I get that you don't agree with me, but stop trying to silence me by sending me elsewhere. I participate in Stack Overflow, I have reputation and a voice here. I don't have one on Meta.SE or any other site, and I'm going to express my disagreement here. Moderators should not be trying to hide our disappointment, don't try to silence us. That's not what you were elected to do. | |
Aug 1, 2019 at 14:54 | comment | added | mason |
We can either agree with that vision and work towards it, or disagree and stop participating. That are not the only two options, let's not fall into a false dilemma fallacy. We can also argue that the reason the site is successful in the first place is because of how we've been running things and the value that our experienced users have put into it. Take those things away, let the quality slip, and no one will want to visit anymore. The VC's understandably want money, but they don't understand what made us valuable in the first place, and it's up to us to make them understand by being vocal
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Aug 1, 2019 at 14:47 | history | edited | Cerbrus | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Aug 1, 2019 at 14:43 | history | answered | George StockerMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |