Skip to main content
33 events
when toggle format what by license comment
Jul 9, 2019 at 22:01 vote accept TheGeneral
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:31 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @MadaraUchiha I still have to see more than conjecture on that subject. Not treating people like trash is not the same thing as treating trash content as trash. However, I really don’t want to go down that rabbit hole of a discussion, that’s for other posts.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:28 comment added Madara's Ghost Mod But now it has been shifted to "we want everyone to participate equally as much as possible", which is, in my opinion, even worse, because to do it, you kinda have to ignore a lot of the work and investment already made by a lot of people, and settle for less quality. If you close someone's question, no matter how well intentioned or phrased, you are unwelcoming. This is immutable.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:28 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters Rather that this whole discussion of proof is pointless unless someone feels inclined to actually dig through the data to produce the proof. I think there are at least some "demographic" statistics available on meta somewhere: activity of low rep users, high rep users, number of closed questions etc. I'm not going to dig it up, but feel free to do so.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:27 comment added Madara's Ghost Mod I don't think anyone disputes the fact that low quality content existed from the beginning of the universe. This is, in no small part, why Stack Overflow was created to begin with. I think that what changed (maybe when Jeff left, maybe at some other time), is the company's views and treatment towards such content, as well as the users who generate it. Jeff's approach was "we value the experts' time more than anything else, and so we'd do anything to preserve it", which I didn't agree with 100% because we can do better at educating our newer population.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:23 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin: you make it sound as if I am denying that? I said that we don’t know. Your answer makes it sound as if we do. I am asking you to provide evidence for that and stated why I think we need something more than the anecdotal information provided so far.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:21 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters Similarly, we don't have any evidence that it has not changed for the worse.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:03 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin they always were coming. How we close them has perhaps changed (too broad, unclear, etc) but they still get downvoted and closed nonetheless. Anyway, you are veering wildly from the actual subject: our perceptions of this are hugely subjective. It’s a well known phenomenon, widely supported by scientific literature. How you motivate your perceptions doesn’t matter here. You feel questions are worse and you have found a reason that supports your hypothesis. But we still don’t actually have evidence that anything has changed.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:03 comment added Servy @Lundin And, as per the post I linked, if the author of the question lacks such a fundamental understanding of the concepts involved that answering the question in a way they can understand would require an unreasonable amount of content, the question is Too Broad. If it's not actually difficult to explain the answer in a way they can understand, even though you think they should already know it, then that close reason never applied.
Jul 2, 2019 at 14:00 comment added Lundin ...which MCVE is not a replacement for. MCVE is about letting others understand the problem you are facing. To require that the OP understands what they are even doing is something else.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:59 comment added Lundin The exact text was: "Questions asking for code must demonstrate a minimal understanding of the problem being solved. Include attempted solutions, why they didn't work, and the expected results. See also: Stack Overflow question checklist"
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:57 comment added Lundin @Servy It may have said "minimal understanding of the problem being solved" but that's the same thing, splitting hairs. You can't understand how to solve the problem with your C++ code if you don't understand the utter basics of C++ to begin with.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:50 comment added Servy @Lundin The problem is that you've entirely misquoted the close reason. There was never any close reason of, "user must demonstrate a minimum of knowledge about the topic being discussed." That might be what you wished it said, but it was never what it said.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:46 comment added Lundin @Servy I'm pretty dead certain that "user must demonstrate a minimum of knowledge about the topic being discussed" existed to close questions where the user didn't have a minimum of knowledge of the topic being discussed.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:44 comment added Servy @Lundin That close reason never existed to close questions that were about basic topics. This post most succinctly describes what the close reason existed for, and how to close any questions that actually meet the criteria that close reason was designed to have. I also feel obligated to point out that, as Martijn has said, there were plenty of low quality questions from long before then that were not closed or downvoted, and plenty of people complaining about that fact.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:41 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters It was being abused occasionally, but mostly it was used to close homework questions where the OP couldn't be bothered to learn even the most basic stuff. Because we don't have such a close reason any longer, the trashy didn't-read-chapter-one newbie questions keep coming.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:29 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters We did that all the time, when we had the close reason "user must demonstrate a minimum of knowledge about the topic being discussed". But I'm sure you can provide statistical proof that this close reason was never used.
Jul 2, 2019 at 13:18 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin: no, we did not. We have plenty of questions from before that time that would fit that (rather vague and open to broad interpretation) description. We never did that.
Jul 2, 2019 at 12:08 comment added Lundin @Patrice That's just because you have a greater chance at receiving a response from SO the company when spewing random trash on Twitter, than you have when participating on SO/SE meta...
Jul 2, 2019 at 11:59 history edited Gimby CC BY-SA 4.0
I don't like moths, creepy creatures. Let's turn them into months.
Jul 2, 2019 at 11:53 comment added Patrice @Martin What's a bit disheartening here (and, it's not your fault) is that for a veteran to be heard we need proof and stats to corroborate what we say. If it's a newbie ... One Twitter post is enough, with nothing but 'heres my feeling'...
Jul 2, 2019 at 11:12 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters Be that as it may, before 2014 we closed all questions of the nature "I haven't read the first chapters of any beginner-level book, please be my interactive beginner tutorial". Now those questions are incredibly common, answered and even up-voted. They are so basic that you can't even close them as dupes, because it is simply too fundamental stuff.
Jul 2, 2019 at 10:50 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin: my own instinct is that it hasn't changed, because I have seen these "what happened to the quality?" posts re-occur every once in a while as someone else falls victim to the same biases and posts about their observations as if they are entirely new. This has been on-going since I started participating on Meta, some time way back in 2012. And as I've shown with the 2010 example, those posts had already started in 2010. So people have been 'noticing this trend' for nearly 10 years now.
Jul 2, 2019 at 10:41 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin: That's my whole point: Humans are terrible at noticing trends. Positive or negative. We suffer from a whole host of biases that are great for survival in a hunter-gatherer life but will also make you susceptible to subjectively noticing a negative trend where usually there isn't one. I don't know if there is, but you saying so is not good enough. All humans suffer from this, no-one is exempt, which is why I ask for rigorous statistical proofs.
Jul 2, 2019 at 9:17 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters Well, I'm no database wizard so I can't help you there. But as a long term user I can certainly notice the negative trend, subjectively. For the same reason that I can subjectively tell that I'm ill, without a doctor proving it by analysing microbiological samples. To be puking all over the place is evidence enough, to use a suitable metaphor.
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:55 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin that post was already (rightly) criticised at the time. Individual users will always see a rise and fall in participation. My account is no exception, I am currently swamped with work so post far less. Other accounts have started after me and are crazily active right now and will at some point taper off again. That’s not proof of an overall decline. And I asked for proof that question quality levels have changed.
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:51 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters One attempt to provide proof was made in the linked post, here.
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:47 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin: Earlier, better example from 2010.
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:35 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod @Lundin: show me the statistical proof. Because I know claims like these have been made much earlier than that, without actual proof. The human mind is a very fickle thing.
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:33 comment added Lundin @MartijnPieters But there was a notable trend change in 2014. From that point, the site has strived for quantity over quality.
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:23 comment added Shinjo Possibly related: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/374807/11328122
Jul 2, 2019 at 7:21 comment added Martijn Pieters Mod And it wasn’t new then either. Just because it was new to you doesn’t mean it was new to the site. Not then and not now. It happened the moment the site started. Not any later.
Jul 2, 2019 at 6:45 history answered Lundin CC BY-SA 4.0