Timeline for Why does MCVE help page not explicitly address the providing of example data?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
29 events
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Jul 9, 2019 at 16:59 | comment | added | smci | @PM2Ring: yes that's a given. My point to Martijn and Gimby is that the MCVE guidelines should be changed to explicitly say so - they currently don't e.g. "obviously code is usually needed to be MCVE, sometimes data is also essential to be MCVE, depends on context". It is important for a positive new-user experience to actually change the MCVE guidelines to be explicit - they're currently not good. | |
Jul 9, 2019 at 11:37 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | @smci If the question needs a MCVE and doesn't have a self-contained MCVE, vote to close it as such, and walk away. Don't waste your energy arguing. | |
Jul 8, 2019 at 8:26 | comment | added | Martijn Pieters Mod | @smci you will always have people argue over things they disagree with, and no level of additional detail will solve that. | |
Jul 8, 2019 at 4:23 | comment | added | smci | @Gimby: it's not "spoon-feeding" since experienced users can still be borderline non-MCVE yet argue back that they're not. Don't want to have downvoting and closing where avoidable, due to the vagueness of the MCVE page - and we only need to add one line ("Option b)") to change that. | |
Jul 8, 2019 at 4:06 | comment | added | smci | @MartijnPieters: and in fact that page does not represent what you claimed: the "Complete – Provide all parts someone else needs to reproduce your problem in the question itself" only occurs under "Your code examples should be…". That says code, not data. Few people will read it, and the few who do will not read the code guideline to apply to data. | |
Jul 8, 2019 at 3:59 | answer | added | smci | timeline score: 3 | |
Jul 8, 2019 at 3:53 | history | edited | smci | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jul 8, 2019 at 3:46 | comment | added | smci | @MartijnPieters: No the page is absolutely not fine as currently written. Often users argue back that their non-MCVE example is reproduclble. We need something short, non-exhaustive, but in black-and-white saying "What constitutes 'minimal data' depends on the problem domain: e.g. for Python errors, ‘complete traceback’, for UI frameworks, screenshots, for Database ‘schema’ and sample rows, etc." The second option jay.sf proposed "See tutorials for your language: R, SQL, ..." is just right length. | |
Jun 24, 2019 at 7:38 | comment | added | Gimby | I don't really know who would be catered by this amount of spoon feeding. People who use Stack Overflow should be able to apply at least a minimum amount of thought and come to a conclusion it would be a good idea to post example data if the question cannot be answered without it. The people this advice would apply to are the people who are not going to have much success for varying other reasons I'd wager. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 16:49 | comment | added | jay.sf | @MartijnPieters Aight, as said, I didn't expect so much ado about this request, too bad. I've learned a lot. Shall all cope in their domains :) Thanks all! | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 15:42 | comment | added | Martijn Pieters Mod | You are missing ‘data’. Python answerers miss ‘complete traceback’. UI framework experts miss screenshots. Database gurus miss ‘schema’ and sample rows. Yet all those requirements are specific to the problem domain. The page is fine as it is. It needs to be concise, not exhaustively compete! | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 14:01 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod | @jay.sf if you start referring to data, someone else will want something more included because "it's not explicit enough" (but like I mentioned in my first comment, all of these cases are already covered by a generic statement). Adding more in an attempt "to make it clearer" will in fact only make it bigger and messier. At one point, what we can do stops. If you browse general questions, you'll see there are users who completely disregard the MCVE page in all types of ways, even though all the required components are outlined on the help page. Adding the data part will not improve the page. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 13:56 | comment | added | jay.sf | @NicolBolas I didn't expect the site to grow so much when you refer to data, and therefore have to refer to some other important points as well. However, so far I count two such points, what number of points do you estimate that would need to be added? | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 13:48 | comment | added | Nicol Bolas | @jay.sf: The longer the page gets, the less likely people are to read and internalize what's there. The page tries to hit the most common and important issues. Presenting a user with a list of 30 bullet points is not effective at teaching them stuff, so you have to pick your battles. At some point, you have to assume that "Make sure all information necessary to reproduce the problem is included in the question itself:" is good enough. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 13:45 | comment | added | jay.sf | @NicolBolas How then could we improve the MCVE page to better cover topics such as data and required user input? We're repeatedly writing "please add this, please add that". To be more explicit in such an important page could be a start. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 13:31 | comment | added | Nicol Bolas | @jay.sf: The thing is, this could go on and on. What about "all possibly required user input" for command-line programs? | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 11:55 | history | edited | jay.sf | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 23, 2019 at 11:53 | comment | added | jay.sf | @Laurel I'm aware of that. Just inserting "Provide all parts - including all possibly required data - someone else needs to reproduce your problem in the question itself" would be very economical. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 11:45 | comment | added | Laurel | Not every MCVE needs data. For user interfaces you don’t usually have any data. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 11:12 | comment | added | jay.sf | Besides I propose to include one very essential aspect, not every single aspect. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 11:03 | comment | added | jay.sf | @Zoe As I have written "Maybe it's too obvious for experienced community users that a MCVE automatically should include data". My experiences show that inexperienced users might not conclude like that. | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 10:59 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod |
Provide all parts someone else needs to reproduce your problem in the question itself - if data is required to repro the problem, it falls under the "complete" part. If the MCVE page were to cover every single aspect that could potentially be used to create a MCVE, the page would be unnecessarily massive
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Jun 23, 2019 at 10:44 | history | edited | jay.sf | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 23, 2019 at 10:42 | comment | added | jay.sf | @yivi That's a point, but in view of the relevance we might do this quite succinct, see update with more compact proposal | |
Jun 23, 2019 at 10:39 | history | edited | yivi |
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Jun 23, 2019 at 10:39 | history | edited | duplode |
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Jun 23, 2019 at 10:39 | history | edited | jay.sf | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 23, 2019 at 10:33 | history | edited | jay.sf | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 23, 2019 at 10:27 | history | asked | jay.sf | CC BY-SA 4.0 |