Timeline for MCVExit redux: I don't need a milkshake to know when I've missed the mark
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
59 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
Commonmark migration
|
|
Sep 18, 2019 at 0:09 | comment | added | norok2 | I think "minimal working example" is by far and large the commonly accepted name for the concept. It is the only one with its own Wikipedia, The Free Dictionary entry, and non-null Google Trends. SO has somehow adopted this "minimal complete verifiable example", but why using yet another name "minimal reproducible example"? If changing, why not fixing the schism back? | |
Jun 8, 2019 at 17:44 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | Yep: /editing-help @ryan | |
Jun 8, 2019 at 7:29 | comment | added | Ryan Lundy | @Shog9 Is there a list of them documented somewhere? | |
Jun 7, 2019 at 22:56 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | Magic links are just terms that you can type into brackets in comments on SO that are expanded into full links when rendered, @ryan - they're convenient and can save space if you're up against the 600-char length limit. | |
Jun 5, 2019 at 10:54 | comment | added | Ryan Lundy |
How are the magic links supposed to work? If I go to stackoverflow.com/help/example , I just get a 404.
|
|
May 31, 2019 at 17:59 | comment | added | J... |
The new page is great. Why did reprex have to stay, though? And why is it listed first in the list of synonyms? That word didn't even exist until the last post suggested conjuring it into existence. Nobody uses it, few people liked it. Now it gets centre stage? Why? This is called creating a minimal, reproducible example (reprex) - I mean...no it's not. Nobody calls it that. Just delete (reprex) .
|
|
May 25, 2019 at 3:06 | comment | added | elixenide Mod | @shog9 Fickle, indeed. I’ve just never run across that one. | |
May 25, 2019 at 2:41 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | Funny enough, MWE predates MCVE by a fair bit, @EdCottrell. Language on the 'Net is a fickle mistress. | |
May 25, 2019 at 2:31 | comment | added | elixenide Mod | Somehow I missed this discussion until now, but... this seems like a strange, confusing, and unnecessary change. Each word in "minimal, complete, and verifiable example" was important; "reproducible" doesn't sufficiently contain the idea of "complete," which is where so many examples fail. It's also confusing, in that I have literally never heard (until today) anyone call such an example "reprex," "min-reprex," or even "minimal, workable example," but I had heard "MCVE" many times, even before I joined SO. I realize this horse has left the barn, but I'd vote to revert this if I could. | |
May 24, 2019 at 20:56 | history | edited | Shog9Mod |
edited tags
|
|
May 24, 2019 at 15:43 | comment | added | Your Common Sense | It is not the title that people do not understand. But the idea itself. Whatever you call it, you'd never get from a poor noob anything close to mcve. They will just keep posting a raw code sample, genuinely puzzled what on the Earth is wrong with it. Interestingly, the current page offers but little help. The "Reproducible" section explains anything but what does it actually mean. "Eliminate irrelevant issues" is related to M, not R. And "Describe the problem" is not related to MCVE at all. And the "Double-check" surely works. For the OP. On their PC. Contributing nothing to R as well. | |
May 24, 2019 at 14:20 | comment | added | Alexander Ryan Baggett | But without a milkshake, how will you bring the boys to the yard? | |
May 24, 2019 at 4:05 | comment | added | iBug | On an unrelated note, maybe a 301 permanent redirect would be better than a 302 "found" for purposes like SEO or something? | |
May 23, 2019 at 23:27 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | Funny story: I actually didn't know you were referring to your question there, @mason - I thought you were talking about Greg's. I completely overlooked your question until just now; there were a lot of comments and I was much more focused on the answers. So to answer your question then and now: this was motivated by the request to work MCVE into the new question wizard somehow, and... Kinda snowballed from there. | |
May 23, 2019 at 22:29 | comment | added | Robert Crovella | Yes, I'm aware it contains the word "short". But just as you've indicated self-contained and complete are not the same, "short" and minimal are not the same. communication matters. short is desirable, and arguably necessary. minimal is not. | |
May 23, 2019 at 22:23 | comment | added | Robert Crovella | @duplode switching to "self-contained" as a replacement for "complete" would have been perfectly fine (from my perspective) and there is precedent for it. Unfortunately, that is not what happened. Instead the concept was dropped from the terse communication. You'll note that "minimal" doesn't appear in the precedent I cited. That's because from a priority perspective, it's more important to communicate "self contained" than it is to communicate "minimal". | |
May 23, 2019 at 22:20 | comment | added | duplode | @RobertCrovella While that is a valid point, I'm not sure "complete and verifiable" is truly the no-thought alternative one might be looking for. For instance, elsewhere in this discussion Shog makes the pertinent observation that "complete" itself is potentially ambiguous. | |
May 23, 2019 at 22:02 | comment | added | Robert Crovella | @duplode Your statement is absolutely correct. But does not address the issue, in my opinion. If everyone studied the communication carefully, and complied with the meaning, there would be no issue. We need very simple communication that requires no thought. I view removal of the word "complete" as a step backwards. Its OK if you disagree, obviously a great many people disagree including Shog9. And if we all worked at Microsoft, there would be no issue either. I work at NVIDIA, and we understand completely what is meant by a "full repro case" But not everybody understands terse communication | |
May 23, 2019 at 21:56 | comment | added | duplode | @RobertCrovella If an example in a question is not complete, it is not a reproducible example of the OP's issue, as it fails to reproduce the results obtained by the OP. | |
May 23, 2019 at 21:46 | answer | added | duplode | timeline score: 8 | |
May 23, 2019 at 21:17 | comment | added | Alexander Ryan Baggett | We used to call this a "Repro" when I worked at MS Premier support. Repro being short for reproduction of the issue. | |
May 23, 2019 at 20:27 | answer | added | tera | timeline score: 5 | |
May 23, 2019 at 20:11 | comment | added | Robert Crovella | You removed complete from the naming. I think that really sucks. It is absolutely a bigger problem than something that is not "minimal". "minimal" is in the eye of the beholder. "complete" is easily definable, and ascertainable. | |
May 23, 2019 at 19:29 | answer | added | John Bollinger | timeline score: 14 | |
May 23, 2019 at 19:01 | comment | added | mason | I asked you in the original post to explain why you're making these far reaching decisions without consulting the community first. You said you'd have to think about it and get back to us. Well you got back to us, but you never explained why you took a unilateral decision that affected the community without consulting the community. I am still waiting for that answer. The help center says the community runs this site but it seems we're getting further away from that all the time. | |
May 23, 2019 at 17:51 | answer | added | HolyBlackCat | timeline score: 12 | |
May 23, 2019 at 15:40 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | The misspelling is important - that way folks still find it if they transpose letters, @BCharlesH | |
May 23, 2019 at 15:02 | comment | added | user5876282 | Shouldn't this Added "mvce", "repro", "reprex", "min-reprex" and "example" to the footer of the help page itself, to aid search engines (especially our own) in finding the right page. have "mcve" instead of "mvce"? | |
May 23, 2019 at 11:20 | comment | added | Christian Gollhardt | ... and that's why I love this place. +1 | |
May 23, 2019 at 10:59 | answer | added | MSalters | timeline score: 88 | |
May 23, 2019 at 10:59 | comment | added | Mark Amery | "the success rate for folks who read this page before asking is significantly improved over those who do not" - I am skeptical that this is because they learn anything much from the page. Rather, I suspect the phenomenon you mention here is basically 100% selection bias: carefully perusing the help center before posting is a sign of conscientiousness, and conscientious users write better posts. As such, I don't expect this to achieve much. But heck, it can't hurt. So +1 anyway. | |
May 23, 2019 at 10:55 | answer | added | k0pernikus | timeline score: 3 | |
May 23, 2019 at 9:47 | comment | added | Zoe - Save the data dump Mod |
This is a lot better than reprex. But is the highlighting of repr and ex going to be removed?
|
|
May 23, 2019 at 8:38 | answer | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | timeline score: 17 | |
May 23, 2019 at 8:24 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @CodyGray The problem is that one of the arguments being made is that the MCVE page is hard to find (or something like that, I really don't know what anyone saying this is talking about). Having to search for MRE would make it much, much harder than MCVE. So all that's changing is communication is being made more cumbersome (if you type out the whole thing) or less effective (if you abbreviate) than it was before. | |
May 23, 2019 at 7:28 | comment | added | Walfrat | This is definitively better. IMHO problem of last week was more than you came with what you will do instead of coming with a problem, suggesting a solution and ask for community answers. As for the minor importance things, there's tons of post arou nd saying that naming is important and one of the hardest for us, so no it's not minor. If some people think it's not of importance to them, they can just let those who care handle it. Finally I don't really see the problem with mvce but I don't need an demonstration that it is bad. As long the agree on a suggestion is better then so be it. | |
May 23, 2019 at 6:25 | answer | added | jpmc26 | timeline score: -19 | |
May 23, 2019 at 5:47 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | I should probably mention... None of the "magic" links work on meta (nor have they ever worked here) - main site only. | |
May 23, 2019 at 2:43 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | Not sure why MRE would be such a bad metaphor, @Mark. A pre-packaged portion of code, ready for distribution with your question. Even if you don't like stretching the metaphor, TLAs are quite common, so a bit of overlap is almost unavoidable. As long as you don't overlap with something offensive or distasteful, I don't see the problem. | |
May 23, 2019 at 2:30 | comment | added | gbianchi | And translation on international sites are just.. broken.. meta.stackexchange.com/q/328539/141717. and we have to change our pages :( | |
May 23, 2019 at 2:26 | comment | added | gparyani | Looks like this is causing localization issues... | |
May 23, 2019 at 2:06 | comment | added | Mark | MRE is maybe not the best choice of abbreviations... | |
May 23, 2019 at 1:40 | comment | added | user10677470 | this does nothing to get those that do not care enough to click on the original link and read it to click on the new one and read it either. This is just shuffling deck chairs at best ... making it where if someone posts a comment with one of those magic tags casts a close vote for that reason would actually doing something to get peoples attention and get them engaged with being part of the community instead of a drain on the community. | |
May 23, 2019 at 1:38 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | +1 for the title, researching which enabled me to read hilarious reports of Brits throwing delicious banana salted caramel milkshakes at each other | |
May 23, 2019 at 1:28 | answer | added | Greg Schmit | timeline score: 25 | |
May 23, 2019 at 0:46 | comment | added | Davy M | The color of the bike shed might not matter too much to you, but I just cannot stand a Reprex colored bike shed. It's worse than that awful yellow-purple ;) | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:50 | comment | added | πάντα ῥεῖ | @Shog Forget about milkshakes, whiskeba is just fine ;) | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:33 | comment | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | @cs95 Shog has 23 score in python, odds are he doesn't live his life according to The Zen... | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:27 | comment | added | cs95 | OK, so we're in agreement that "min-reprex" is an awkward made up word... then why do you insist on keeping it? Isn't simpler better than complex? Shouldn't there be one -- and preferably only one -- way of doing things? | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:22 | comment | added | S.S. Anne | This new page focuses too much on CSS, JS, XML, HTML, etc. Perhaps you should add details for other (i.e. compiled) languages? | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:11 | answer | added | Andras Deak -- Слава Україні | timeline score: 108 | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:11 | comment | added | πάντα ῥεῖ | @Shog9 The point brought up with @Machavity's response has the nice aside irony to point at the Brexit Chaos :-D | |
May 22, 2019 at 22:09 | history | edited | DavidG | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Fix spelling
|
May 22, 2019 at 22:04 | comment | added | samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz |
Can we please also have a magic link from [mwe] ?
|
|
May 22, 2019 at 21:59 | comment | added | Cris Luengo |
I noticed this new link earlier today, when I typed [mcve] . I like it!
|
|
May 22, 2019 at 21:56 | comment | added | πάντα ῥεῖ | -273 (ATM) is quite impressive though (he he), ;-) | |
May 22, 2019 at 21:09 | comment | added | Shog9 Mod | Credit for "MCVExit" goes to Machavity, whose more serious feedback was also quite helpful. | |
May 22, 2019 at 21:04 | history | asked | Shog9Mod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |