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Apr 3, 2019 at 15:16 comment added Him @Makoto, sometimes, expression of one's feelings is only a means to an end. I think if you carefully consider your position on this matter, you will see that "expressing your feelings" was not your end goal, but that what you actually wanted was "obtaining access to the data." Thus, it is prudent to carefully construct our statements not to express our feelings as accurately as possible, but to communicate a need to the community as effectively as possible. If I have misread this situation, please carry on.
Apr 2, 2019 at 22:51 comment added Makoto @Scott: I'm fine with the way I stated this. The people who have thus expressed their support so far are doing so in spite of (or because of) my language or tone. I respect that not everyone approves of it or agrees with it, but I don't feel it appropriate or prudent to weaken my tone because, in all honesty, this really does represent my feelings - you cannot claim to have a feature which measurably improves quality without any metrics. If you don't wish to agree because of my tone, then I respect that decision too.
Apr 2, 2019 at 19:00 comment added Him @TylerH, I think that the argument here has become somewhat muddled. Perhaps if we focus on improving the language of the post, we can achieve something?
Apr 2, 2019 at 18:57 comment added Him @Makoto I agree with both you and TylerH here. I would like to point out that, your feelings being what they may, your answer is here to represent your feelings and those of voters upon your answer. I think that the language you use is actually counterproductive to your own goals, since something softer would actually receive at least one more upvote (mine) and thereby attract the attention of the powers that be. Please, so that I and others can actually agree with you, edit your answer to be in the form of a request, rather than a demand.
Mar 25, 2019 at 21:29 comment added TylerH @Makoto I'm not sure what you're not sure about. At any rate, my point is they gave evidence, just not the level of access to the underlying data that you want, and your answer & its phrasing in condemning the feature is nonconstructive/nonsensical (it's rude [or 'pointed'] and you're willing to rescind your condemnation with access to data ?regardless of what the data shows?), premature (you haven't seen the data to make a meaningful conclusion to know whether it's worth condemning; see also: nonsensical), and contradictory (you say the data is good, you just want more, so why condemn it?)
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:41 comment added Makoto @TylerH: Um...I'm not sure if you missed that part of the announcement, but they're directly measuring question quality as part of this wizard. Let's pause for a second to make sure we're on the same page here.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:37 comment added TylerH @Makoto Whether I use the wizard or not is also not a direct indicator of a good question. What matters is the reception to those questions down the road. So when we introduce some features like tag watching, the quality of the site goes up, because it's easier to find stuff worth your attention, whether that's answering, editing, or closing. This wizard is just another way for the quality of the site to go up. As for asking a measurably good question, the wizard doesn't make that happen, it just prevents users incapable of doing it from asking at all.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:27 comment added Makoto @TylerH: No, I don't really need to know what tags you're individually watching, since it doesn't prove that you're asking questions in those tags, or a good contributor in those tags, or anything else. How you choose to shape and view the content of the site is a personal decision, not tied to any metric of whether or not one is capable of asking a measurably good question.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:26 comment added Makoto @TravisJ: And all I'm asking for is that data to be made freely available already. Otherwise, I see this effort as largely fruitless.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:24 comment added Travis J Once there is data from this initial experiment (and perhaps their original A/B tests already have this) it should be trivial to see what the percent difference for abdonment was between users who started the classic ask question page (and who filled out at least the title or something to screen for users entering without typing) versus who started the wizard.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:24 comment added TylerH @Makoto I disagree on both fronts; my ability to use custom question lists lets me sort for low (and high) quality questions to close/delete (or answer) better than I otherwise could. That's a pretty direct impact in my opinion, although it's a lagging indicator rather than a leading one. The same goes for tag watching and ignoring. Can you see what tags I'm watching? Or whether I get notifications on activity in those tags? As for the other front, what makes an impact to the quality of questions something that mandates data availability via SEDE?
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:22 comment added Makoto @TravisJ: I agree in large part with your assertion, but that's not 5% per tag. If we got 5% less Java or PHP questions that would be a win. But I have no way to prove if that's the case.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:19 comment added Travis J ...Uncertainty leads to questions never being posted, which saves the community a whole heap of time and reduces the amount of low quality entering the system. The entire review system retroactively removes something like 10-15% of these from happening. By relation, 5% would be massive.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:19 comment added Travis J It is easily possible to have a strong effect on quality by limiting the lowest quality questions from even being posted. This is part of what the mentorship program accomplished. There are statistics to back that up as well. Once users realize they need to have some sort of structure for their post, then often end up rethinking if they should ask...
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:16 comment added Makoto @TylerH: To that point, none of the existing per-user preferences to date actually impact the quality of questions we get on the site. If you're talking about things like who follows tags or who has the top bar stickied, those aren't material in a discussion around question quality. If we're supposed to have information about this actually helping improve question quality, having this be reproducible is kinda important. 5% may come from some subset of the site overall but it could be a negative value depending on what you look at. We don't really know.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:14 comment added TylerH @Makoto The evidence they gave is the metric/statistics they provided (e.g. the delta of questions of various descriptions). It's not reproducible evidence in that you can't run the numbers from the data yourself, but it's still evidence. For comparison, what other per-user preferences do we have access to via SEDE?
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:14 comment added Makoto @TylerH: Yeah, ya caught me. That was a rant. I'll withdraw that complaint.
Mar 25, 2019 at 20:13 comment added TylerH @Makoto What makes you think that user was even prompted with the wizard? They have ~240 rep more than is needed to not be prompted with it by default.
Mar 25, 2019 at 19:05 comment added Makoto @CodyGray: All they really need to do is make the metrics they're using publicly accessible. They're internal now, as far as I know it, but they exist in some form. Allowing us to query them to actually see how well they work for specific tags - not just the overall picture - would be more than enough to placate me.
Mar 25, 2019 at 19:03 comment added Cody Gray Mod Okay, so...what's your counter-proposal? What should we try instead?
Mar 25, 2019 at 18:53 history edited Makoto CC BY-SA 4.0
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Mar 25, 2019 at 18:14 comment added Makoto @CodyGray: If nothing else, I hope this serves as an attention-grabber. If you're going to say that something is measurably and demonstratively better, then transparency is paramount. Without that transparency, we really don't have anything good to go off of. I mean, I can only look at what Java questions were posted today, y'know. I can't say one way or another if this is actually working without any way to see the data.
Mar 25, 2019 at 18:13 comment added Makoto I wanted to see if there were any takeaways from the last time that a feature like this was released, @CodyGray. I've been skeptically optimistic about if this feature would work at all, and at least in internal testing they said, "It did". Now I watch Java every day. I still see some of the same old poor questions in Java today as I did when this was still in Beta. I want some kind of proof that this is going to really work. I'm just left with trusting their word.
Mar 25, 2019 at 17:29 comment added Cody Gray Mod It's not at all clear to me why you're taking such an obstinate stance on this. While I agree it'd be nice to see the data, why does the fact that no data has been published make you against the feature? Do you think the team is lying to us here? Is it not worth trying anyway? I mean, you kinda have to try something before you can generate meaningful data anyway. A small-scale test is really only to shake the bugs out of the wizard, not to provide representative data on which to draw meaningful conclusions.
Mar 25, 2019 at 16:23 comment added Makoto @TylerH: If a feature comes out claiming to improve something, it should be backed up with some evidence. Until we can see that evidence, I have no reason to believe the claims. That's really all I'm stating here.
Mar 25, 2019 at 16:22 comment added Makoto @TylerH: They've run this trial since about December when they first put it into a beta of sorts, and we've not had any auditable statistics about this, either. We just have the number of 1-5% of improvements. This doesn't tell us much. This doesn't say across what tags, across what technologies, or if there was a higher-than-average (or worse-than-average) trend in the hostly contested and most notorious tags on the site.
Mar 25, 2019 at 16:21 comment added Makoto @TylerH: I find it less "rude" and more "pointed". I put this request in back in December when they were first discussing it, and we've heard crickets about it since. I'm stating that I have no way to trust that this is making the site a better place or making questions any better because we don't have any actual statistics to prove one way or another, in spite of what the desired outcome is.
Mar 25, 2019 at 16:18 comment added TylerH Abstaining on a feature's merits is not that big of a deal, but that's very different from "condeming this feature" in boldface, which is a much bigger deal and a rather destructive criticism. This would be much better received, I think, if it were worded simply as a request for access to query-able data. Personally I don't think it's something worth querying, but I'd support people having access to the data if they wanted it. I can't support this kind of rude complaint, however.
Mar 25, 2019 at 15:49 history answered Makoto CC BY-SA 4.0