Timeline for The burnination criteria need a complete rework
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
33 events
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Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
Commonmark migration
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Feb 16, 2019 at 21:49 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @TylerH Although I'd like to point out that the change I request in this particular post is not necessarily making burns easier, but fixing the weird criteria that somehow got adopted in the past couple years. I still maintain that this set of questions really doesn't make any sense or help us much with evaluating burns. If "level of effort" is a primary concern for approving them, then it's conspicuously missing. We could still make the burn criteria better reflect what we're actually looking for without changing any other part of the process. | |
Feb 16, 2019 at 21:40 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @TylerH That's fair, but SO isn't going to support changing the status quo. They're just not interested in quality based moderation anymore. Which means we can't expect any tooling or permissions changes, and changing the process would have to be completely community driven. That feels like a death sentence on any attempt to change, in any part of the process. | |
Feb 16, 2019 at 21:38 | comment | added | TylerH | @jpmc26 I think it's a little premature to make burns easier to approve without any consideration to making them easier to process or to making tag management any better. | |
Feb 16, 2019 at 21:36 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @TylerH I've tried. I've generally found it unproductive because I don't have the expertise to fully review most of the questions. I do believe that burnination as a process is fundamentally broken, by which I mean that effective management of tag quality is nigh impossible. I do believe burns should be easier to approve, and I believe they should also be easier to execute. I also think SO would benefit from making tags harder to create, but this whole discussion has demonstrated to me that we also don't even have any clear guidelines or consensus on what makes a tag good or bad. | |
Feb 16, 2019 at 21:03 | comment | added | TylerH | @jpmc26 Yes, the process is slow... that's one of the main reasons we have such a long time before even the current ones will be processed (let alone new ones that pop up during that time). That burninations are a slow process seems irrelevant to your argument though, which is that the criteria are problematic. In fact, the reasoning seems to be that you want burninations to be easier to approve, thus giving us even more of a backlog of burninations to do... have you considered joining any of the burninations? Even one extra person joining in can make a big difference over a couple weeks. | |
Feb 16, 2019 at 1:52 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @TylerH Also, the reason why it's over seven years is because the burn process is ridiculously slow. Not because we have some massive quantity of burns approved and waiting. We're almost certainly falling behind, too. It would only require 2 bad tags a month to mean we're losing ground. | |
Feb 16, 2019 at 1:46 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @TylerH That's only 84 burns out of 54291 tags. If even 1% of them are bad (which sounds like a gross underestimate given the sheer quantity and the fact there's only extremely light controls on creating them), then we'd have over 5 times that. Doesn't sound to me like we have nearly enough. Here's an example of it happening: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/380087/1394393 | |
Feb 15, 2019 at 22:14 | history | edited | TylerH | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Fixed typos; changed 'facts' to 'points as the bullet points are making persuasive arguments, not pointing out objective facts
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Feb 15, 2019 at 22:04 | comment | added | TylerH | "that can be easily abused to argue against burnination in nearly all cases" If this is the case then why do we have enough to-be-burninated tags to last us over seven years at about one-month per tag? I don't think this argument holds much water when you look at the data. | |
Feb 14, 2019 at 18:25 | comment | added | jscs | They should also be strengthened to demonstrate clear evidence of harm caused by the tag, IMO. But I haven't got the time or strength to climb that mountain and die on it. | |
Feb 14, 2019 at 2:16 | comment | added | Nicol Bolas | @Servy: "Saying, "cancer is a problem, someone should cure it, the existing remedies aren't great and so I'd like to see something better" isn't really helpful." Sure it is. If everyone believes that cancer is just fine and nobody is doing anything about it, identifying a problem is the first step in solving it. Which is what the OP is saying here: we all think there isn't a problem, but there is. Granted, I don't really buy into that, but suggesting a solution is not required for this to be a productive discussion. Though it would help, as it would make it clearer what the problem is. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:40 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @TravisJ I would argue because that post does not articulate any of the problems I have. Furthermore, the answers all refuse to even address the question of actually making any changes to the criteria. This suggests to me that the question was really about something else in the first place. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:40 | answer | added | Makoto | timeline score: 10 | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:40 | comment | added | Servy | @jpmc26 Saying, "cancer is a problem, someone should cure it, the existing remedies aren't great and so I'd like to see something better" isn't really helpful. If you don't actually have something useful to add to that discussion, such as how someone may be able to actually address that problem, at least in part, in a new way, it's just not really adding anything of value to the discussion. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:35 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Servy Also, insisting that I must provide a better suggestion is like insisting that I have to be able to cure cancer to call it a problem. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:35 | comment | added | Travis J | Why is this not an exact duplicate of meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/366186/…? | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:32 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Servy That is not what I said. I said that I don't understand the intention behind these questions enough to offer a replacement and that I was assuming there were good, useful intentions behind them. If you can explain what they're supposed to mean, I'd appreciate that explanation in an answer here. It could be used to improve or replace the criteria. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:31 | comment | added | Servy | @jpmc26 You said that you didn't provide any criteria that you think are better because you thought it was pointless and should just be removed entirely. Now you're saying they're useful and should just be better, at which point, as mentioned earlier, do you have a suggestion of better criteria? | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:30 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @CertainPerformance I don't know, but if so, they don't even do that very well. They're typically used as a strict bludgeon in burn requests. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:28 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Servy I want good criteria that are sensible, lead to good tag usage, and are useful in evaluating a burnination request. These are clearly not that, and I've outlined some reasons why not. In fact, I'd appreciate better guidance about what kinds of burns we want to do. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:27 | comment | added | CertainPerformance | Tags to be burninated don't always fail all of those tests, though, right? Often enough, the answer to a test is "sometimes" or "moderately" rather than "yes" or "no". I wonder if those tests are there to provoke discussion rather than to stand as ironclad rules which must be followed. And, if that's the case, I agree that it would be good for said post to clarify that (rather than to say that a tag must fail all tests to be burninated) | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:27 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @CodyGray "Oh, so it's all about what the tag wiki says? Kinda like a whoever-gets-there-first situation?" Obviously not, but we are in the context of SO here. If your argument were valid, it would fail Q1 for being ambiguous, too. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:26 | comment | added | Servy | Do you not thing there should be burnination criteria because nothing should be burninated, everything should be burnated, or because you want people to decide without any criteria? | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:24 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @CodyGray If I had any specifically, I'd include them. Unfortunately, I actually don't understand the intention of these questions enough in the first place to justify replacing them with anything vs. just outright deleting them. So I'm soliciting suggestions from the people who thought they were important and useful enough to include there. In other words, I was trying to be generous in assuming that there was actually some meaning behind them, despite not being able to figure out what it is. If you don't know, maybe I will revise to suggest just removing them and leaving what's below. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:22 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | Oh, so it's all about what the tag wiki says? Kinda like a whoever-gets-there-first situation? I don't think the tag system would benefit from a more Wild West-style approach. Anyway, I'm happy to hear your suggestions for burnination criteria. I don't see any in your question. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:21 | comment | added | Makoto | @CodyGray: You could burninate asp.net and we would be just as safe from snakes. ;) | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:21 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @CodyGray I don't see anything about non-venomous snakes in the python description. Do you? Python is a programming language. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:21 | comment | added | Makoto | Honestly I haven't had a problem with the criterion. Now, while I don't disagree with your call for disambiguity, I'm eager to hear of a scenario in which ambiguity was introduced which led to a tag which should have been burninated surviving. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:20 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | "Q2 alone is reason enough to burn a tag" No, it isn't. Or we'd burn the tag [python] because large, non-venomous snakes have nothing to do whatsoever with programming. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:19 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @Makoto It doesn't matter. The FAQ should be clear, unambiguous, and useful. Are you arguing that this set of rules actually makes any sense? Because that's the whole point: they make no sense as written. | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:18 | comment | added | Makoto | Eh?? What meta-tags which have been worthy of burnination have survived because of these rules? | |
Feb 13, 2019 at 23:13 | history | asked | jpmc26 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |