Skip to main content

Timeline for Watch those itchy trigger fingers

Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0

36 events
when toggle format what by license comment
Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 history edited CommunityBot
Commonmark migration
Jan 23, 2019 at 22:48 comment added Patrice @Spencer sorry your first meta reception was so bumpy, and you are most welcome for the guidance. I hope I didn't contribute too much in making it worse. You are entirely correct in the call to 'remember how your moderation is seen'. It's unfortunate, but it's a big issue. Veterans will always defend moderation by saying 'I am voting the post, not the user's while that is 100% true.... Is that how the user sees it? Probably not. It's good to remind ourselves of that sometimes, I find. I hope this didn't turn you off from continuing to help on the site ^^
Jan 23, 2019 at 22:43 comment added Spencer @Patrice Thank you for your guidance.
Jan 23, 2019 at 21:37 comment added Patrice (cont) it to a specific score. I vote a question up if I find it valuable, and down if I find it not. I shouldn't think about the "current score" of a question and aim to reach a certain point. Adding on more downvotes isn't for the OP. It's for the rest of us, to : a) be able to delete the question easier if needed, and (mostly) b) to CLEARLY signal to other users that this is just not worth their time. The "message" it sends to the OP is tangential to that..
Jan 23, 2019 at 21:34 comment added Patrice @Spencer well in my eyes, this question was properly handled, it wasn't too fast at all for the content provided in the first revision. So already there we won't see eye to eye. I am a very big believer in closing ASAP, moderating immediately, and not "waiting" (because I've been bit so much in the past by people who simply do not want to improve....). You call for more waiting and consideration in that regards. I just don't see us agreeing there. As for your point of "did the asker get enough downvotes?"... that's just not how moderation is done here. I don't vote a question to bring (cont)
Jan 23, 2019 at 21:10 comment added Servy @Spencer I wish I could have made you answer the very direct questions asked of you, instead of having you only accuse people of not reading your comments when you haven't actually answered the questions asked of you. Updating your question to again accuse people of not reading what you say, and refusing to answer the questions asked of you, is not helpful, and isn't going to "make people see what you saw".
Jan 23, 2019 at 21:08 comment added Spencer @Patrice I don't think our views are as far apart as all that. There is definitely a (limited) "how much is enough" discussion to be had. Some other meta-question, maybe. I'm exhausted.
Jan 23, 2019 at 20:48 comment added Patrice @Spence I'd say a big thing here is that, while we are discussing the same situation, we have diametrically opposed points of view on what should happen. 9 minutes to close a close-worthy question, with 7 downvotes, isn't too fast of moderation in my eyes. So basically maybe we need to have a discussion of "how much is enough", before we can say "this is too much". And I think that the community thinks "immediate" is enough...
Jan 23, 2019 at 20:31 comment added Spencer @Servy I wish I could have made you see what I saw. I made one final update.
Jan 23, 2019 at 19:29 comment added Servy @Spencer You have no basis for assuming that people haven't read the comments before voting. Nor have you provided any reason for why they'd need to. (You'd want to make sure, before posting a comment, that others haven't already covered what you want to say, naturally.) Saying you want people to "think about how fast things are" doesn't mean much. Plenty of us think about how fast curation happens a lot and we regularly feel it's too slow. If you think it should be slower, you need to both explain specifically how it should be slower, and why it would be helpful. You haven't.
Jan 23, 2019 at 19:26 comment added Spencer @Servy "read the comments first" appears in that post more than once. As do things that boil down to "think about how bewilderingly fast things happen on SO. Maybe someone else has already got this" -- the clues are in the comments and the question rep.
Jan 23, 2019 at 19:14 comment added fbueckert @Spencer The additional points that boil down to, "Don't downvote the new user!" do nothing to strengthen your argument. Downvotes are not primarily to encourage the poster to improve the post; they're there to signal to everybody else that the post has issues.
Jan 23, 2019 at 19:11 comment added Servy @Spencer Rather than just telling me that that's all in the OP, provide the quotes. What does the original post say that says which actions should be deleted, and by how much, and why it would be helpful for them to not get the feedback on the quality of their post until [some period of time you haven't described how long it should be] later. Your post says that you want feedback to be later, not what, not how much. You say that you think waiting would be useful, and talk about how horrible, mean and cruel people are for not waiting, but you don't say why waiting is helpful.
Jan 23, 2019 at 19:00 comment added Spencer @Patrice I just made an update; see if that helps.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:58 comment added Patrice @Spencer Do you think that's what people focused on in your original post, with the way it was written? This is unfortunate, but the climate on meta means that if you don't thread carefully, people jump up in flames over the wrong things, because they are part of your question. If your issue was JUST time, why talk about the CoC? Why throw random "people don't read, just like in Usenet"? I am not saying that it is EASY to do, but if you want your question to stand a chance, be objective, clear, and don't devolve in passive/agressiveness or anything "ranty". It won't go well on Meta...
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:52 comment added Spencer @Patrice It was all there in the original post. But yes, it's clear that you've stated the consensus. The original comment block had a link to meta post saying exactly what you said.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:47 comment added Spencer @Servy This is really frustrating. I feel like it's all in the original post, and every time I try to clarify, someone perceives it as an insult.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:38 comment added Servy @Spencer What moderation actions should have been delayed, and how should they have been delayed? How would withholding that feedback for the user have been helpful for them? Why do you think that feedback wasn't useful when given promptly, but would have been more useful later?
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:16 comment added Patrice @Spencer AH. Ok then, that's something we can discuss, thx for clarifying that. However, I don't think talking about how long it took is really relevant. IMHO (and from what I gathered over time, it seems to be shared with a lot of the meta regulars), moderation should happen ASAP. The faster it happens, the clearer the signal to the OP, and the less time we have a bad question left open that others can then point to and go "BUT YOU ACCEPTED THIS, NOW ACCEPT MINE TOO".
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:15 comment added fbueckert @Spencer No, all you've done is continue to propagate the argument without clarifying. At this point, I don't think you're actually trying to participate in good faith, so I'm done.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:14 comment added Spencer @Patrice The problem is that it all happened in too short a time span.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:13 comment added Spencer @fbueckert And there is the nub of the problem. I proposed a response to your concerns about the original post (i.e. maybe the volume of activity on SO has something to do with it) and you chose to view that as a negative comparison.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:12 comment added Patrice @Spencer what piece on that question was "too much" and should be prevented? the 7 downvotes? The comments? CVs? the whole thing? The issue people have here is that you are complaining about the reception of this question in general. But then when we deep dive, it seems like there's nothing concrete: you just wanted that question to not have been moderated that way. Ok.... How do you think effective moderation in this situation should have happened? We're trying to reach a consensus, but we don't know what you think is a correct moderation here, so it makes coming to a consensus.... hard
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:03 comment added fbueckert There we go with the negative comparisons, again....
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:01 comment added Spencer @NicolBolas Plenty of experience with other SE sites leads me to this conclusion. On the other hand, the volume of activity on SO is much greater than all of them -- when you drive into the big city for the first time and you're nearly in 5 car accidents there might not be much point in asking people to drive more carefully.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:01 comment added fbueckert @Spencer Easy. Tell us why you think curation activities are hostile. You have mentioned we're throwing users into a buzzsaw. That's a hostile and negative perception. Explain why you think that is, and we might be able to move forward. You're equating curation with negative actions, and that requires explanation.
Jan 23, 2019 at 18:00 comment added Nicol Bolas @Spencer: You want us to change our behavior, but you won't say exactly how. And you won't say that because you want to "avoid the endless back-and-forth and escalation". But because you won't say how we should change our behavior, we're left with no actual substance to your post; it's merely a complaint about people doing something wrong without any idea of what the wrong thing was or what the right thing would have looked like.
Jan 23, 2019 at 17:55 comment added Spencer @fbueckert At this point, I really don't know what I can write that will make you change your mind about that.
Jan 23, 2019 at 17:31 comment added fbueckert @Spencer Considering that that perception is the key point to your argument, it requires proper explanation. Your deliberate attempts to sidestep that explanation doesn't sidestep the escalation; it just refuses to move the discussion forward. Couple that with the comment on how your characterization of voters is, "unthinking", or, "a violation of the code of conduct", and taken altogether, it's an attack on the entire curation process. So clearing up that aspect can only help you.
Jan 23, 2019 at 17:30 comment added Nicol Bolas @Spencer: The problem is "think before you act" tells us nothing about what we're supposed to think about. How do you know we didn't "think before you act"? How do you know that any of the responses to the post were thoughtless or unaware of the situation or context? You seem to want some behavioural change, but you're unwilling to actually say what it is. The post got 7 downvotes, 5 close votes, and a bunch of comments; which part of any of that was wrong?
Jan 23, 2019 at 17:26 comment added Spencer @fbueckert I stated my meaning ("think before you act") many times and people keep viewing it, over and over, it as "hostile to downvotes". Or see "personal attacks and insults" where there are none. And what you see as "bad faith" is just trying to avoid the endless back-and-forth and escalation that happens far too often in discussions like these. At this point, I feel like if people can't already see the difference between the two in what I've already written, there's nothing more I can do to improve the situation.
Jan 23, 2019 at 17:10 comment added fbueckert @Spencer We keep asking how we're mischaracterizing it, and you just dodge or ignore the question. Either answer it, or don't, but continually saying we're reading it wrong with telling us how is a pretty bad faith argument. Until you elaborate on that, I stand by my assessment. If you want to debate in good faith, then debate in good faith. Adding sideways character attacks does nothing to actually help your argument, either.
Jan 23, 2019 at 17:09 comment added Spencer @Servy I disagree thoroughly with your characterization of my question and comments. But I guess that's a result of the long-term Internet problem where people read things differently. It's been around since Usenet.
Jan 23, 2019 at 16:58 comment added Servy @Spencer Then why did you say that people should stop doing that in your question, and why is your question and comments filled with personal attacks and insults at people doing that?
Jan 23, 2019 at 16:55 comment added Spencer I agree that immediate VTC on a bad question as it stands is very often a VERY GOOD idea.
Jan 23, 2019 at 16:41 history answered fbueckert CC BY-SA 4.0