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Mar 16, 2019 at 17:14 comment added jpmc26 @TylerH Maybe I'm unclear on the point you're making. Would mind answering a question for me? "Second, yes, it is the same thing. SO is for everyone who wants to get or provide help with coding." What if they lack the requisite knowledge, skill in programming or writing, or even simply the time to create a high quality post? You say I'm misunderstand when I assert that we have to be tolerant of low quality content. How do we treat such a person?
Mar 16, 2019 at 16:24 comment added TylerH @jpmc26 You've done a good job of building up the extreme interpretation of something so that you can try and tear it down, but that's not what's being discussed here, so your first comment isn't really constructive. Second, yes, it is the same thing. SO is for everyone who wants to get or provide help with coding. However, welcoming users is not the same thing as encouraging them to post bad/poor-quality content. You misunderstand what being welcoming means.
Mar 16, 2019 at 1:19 comment added jpmc26 "...it's pretty much the same thing." It's not the same thing at all. SO's historical mission was to create a high quality knowledge repository. This definition is fundamentally exclusive; only people who are willing and able to create high quality content were allowed to post. SO was not for everyone; it was for people who had enough of a grasp of programming and writing to create useful, well written posts. Regardless of the reasons, most users post low quality content; welcoming them means encouraging them to continue. Make no mistake: that is the intention of the welcoming push.
Mar 16, 2019 at 1:09 comment added jpmc26 "Seems to me like you are reading quite a pointed accusation where there is none at all." It seems to me like you're unfamiliar with the current political/social turmoil around the ideas of "unconscious bias" and "privilege." These ideas by definition assert that a person's racism or sexism is so deeply ingrained in their psyche that it affects everything the person does. They assert that our society is built fundamentally on such prejudices, requiring a massive upheaval to fix. If you don't recognize that as an accusation, I think you're either ill informed or not very perceptive.
Jan 21, 2019 at 23:23 comment added Patrice @Tyler and see, that is a valid goal and likely in line with my own concept of both sides not wanting to listen. I think the biggest difference is that what I see as context that helps frame what we currently see, you see as completely separate. I think that since Jay's blog post is what started all of it, the current blog post linking to it and still saying it has to change, sends a very implicit 'I agree with Jay' message. Now it may be completely unfounded. But if they wanted to detach themselves from that blog post, they could have made it cleared than how they did.
Jan 21, 2019 at 21:21 comment added Magisch @TylerH FWIW I'm ambivalent, part of me is really tired of hearing about it. I'm not really going to go anywhere (not that I was that active to begin with), that's why I also didn't reopen this when it was closed, and my concerns to its closure were more procedural then factual in nature.
Jan 21, 2019 at 21:17 comment added TylerH @Magisch After all, people are still here and contributing and have moved on from Joel's last highly polarized post here on Meta. Only one person I know of still complains about it every chance they get. I'm just encouraging the same thing happen here. This Q is hyperbolic, misguided, and seems like it's just a rant trying to reopen old wounds (a la Martijn's comment under the OP). I did it the honor of responding to each point but it seems, judging from the scores (and I'm not at all surprised, mind), more people reading want to continue to focus on their frustration rather than move forward.
Jan 21, 2019 at 21:13 comment added TylerH @Magisch I'm saying this is a different blog post by a different person about a broader subject, and the issues at hand here in this Meta Q are that the OP seems to be reading into it things that were not even slightly implied to an excessive level, as well as honing in on one aspect from one blog post that was referenced in this one, which Patrice and other users have harped on. I'm not saying we should forget or act like it never happened, but we also shouldn't derail separate efforts/posts by other employees just because some folks want Jay to apologize for something he said in April 2018.
Jan 21, 2019 at 19:41 comment added Magisch @TylerH and the blog post accused of doing that is still up, unaltered, and still being linked. So I'm not sure why the distinction is useful. You admit yourself that no apology or retraction ever happened, so I'm unsure why you're arguing against its merit wrt to the discussion.
Jan 21, 2019 at 19:41 comment added TylerH @Patrice I agree that the blog post by Jay was not well written or well vetted (if at all), and I think it's frankly a joke that Jay never responded to the criticism and offered a mea culpa, but the way I see it SO gives their people tons of latitude (I mean, look at Joel's meta posts), and doesn't like addressing some of these things, so I just move on and try to work with the rest of the devs/CMs who want to engage. I agree w/ putting pressure on them where appropriate, but in cases like this it not only detracts from progress but does so in a non-constructive way.
Jan 21, 2019 at 19:39 comment added TylerH @Patrice Yes, each thing is linked as the year-in-review references each initiative. As I recall, people did not have an issue with the initiative to be nice and friendly (after all we have had half a dozen 'be nice' campaigns on SO over the years), only with the perception that Jay was calling SO users bigots or misogynists.
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:29 comment added Patrice @Kevin that same post is ALSO linked in the currently discussed blog post, but you know, we need to forget about it and never discuss it again, even if Stack uses this to continue justifying themselves...
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:28 comment added Kevin B @TylerH The entire... "movement" has a name, and jay's blog post is part of said "movement," maybe even the basis of it. The blog post has not been removed, edited, or denounced by the staff any any way shape or form. Therefore i don't see it as much of a stretch to take the current blog post mentioning that movement as being something they're still progressing on as still pushing forward with the very lopsided opinions of the movement.
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:23 comment added TylerH @Patrice Yes, I think it was, since in a conversation about a year-in-review blog post by David Fullerton, you seem focused only on something Jay Hanlon said in a blog post from nearly a year ago, especially considering you don't seem to be putting any stock in David's blog post not saying anything about SO users being the problem. Everyone complained with Jay said and implied what he said and implied. Then a year later when David talks about everything they did that year, the only thing posted on Meta about it is someone stirring the pot about things Jay said last year? Come on...
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:16 comment added Patrice @TylerH well considering that the sentence you quote up here is almost used verbatim in Hanlon's post, I feel like the two are hard to dissociate. The claim that we are discriminatory started there, and it seems like it's continuing now, without so much emphasis on "you are the problem", but the established post by Hanlon will make it so the discussion looks like it's always headed there. And for someone talking about good faith, you're quick to use snark(was your last sentence really needed? and phrased that way?). Anyway, I am leaving this convo now, don't think this'll result in anything
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:13 comment added TylerH @Patrice I thought we were talking about today's blog post? I'm not defending the one from Jay last year. This is a different employee at a wiser Stack Overflow posting a more-informed follow-up on Stack Overflow's efforts. Hindsight is always 20/20... a good faith response IMO would be to move on from that and focus on the efforts they are doing now like improving the profile page, introducing a question wizard, etc. Or fast forward to 2035 and you can still be complaining about Jay Hanlon linking to an implicit bias test in 2018, yelling "Stack Overflow has gone to pot!" Your choice :-)
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:06 comment added Patrice aren't currently trying to meet along the middle, and that's causing WAY more friction than anything else right now, and with 0 progress.
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:06 comment added Patrice @TylerH because linking to "implicit bias tests", with a notice of "you don't think you're biased? Take this test. If you're like me, it'll hurt." doesn't imply there is at least a bit of the "isms" in the way the veterans act? That's surely the impression it left for a lot of people (me included). If the intent was always to just say "that's how our users feel, but we don't think the veterans are discriminatory", then why link to such tests? But in any case, that doesn't change much of where I was going. I am willing to take part of the blame, but the fact of the matter is that the two sides
Jan 21, 2019 at 18:01 comment added TylerH @Patrice the blog post doesn't make either part of that quoted claim; it sounds like you are inferring stuff which was not said as well. "too often people feel unwelcome, unheard, and unable to help or to find help, particularly women, people of color, and other underrepresented groups." This is a general statement that, if anyone wanted to, could be backed up by numerous blog posts, twitter complaints, reddit posts, etc. It doesn't say anything as dismissive or accusatory as what your quote says. In order for 'both sides to listen' to each other, they first have to not invent quotes.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:55 comment added Patrice @TylerH I don't see that emphasis on "that's how they were feeling, not how you guys were acting" in the blog post, and everything afterwards (except some messages from certain specific moderators) didn't make me feel like that the stance was anything but "curators are the problem". But again, that's just ironic, cause we have 2 sides that right now don't want to listen to the other. I don't see how anyone thinks we'll get out of this, unless one of those sides gives in a bit...
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:51 comment added TylerH @fbueckert When the post makes claims that weren't there, drums up controversy where there was none, and concludes with a bunch of loaded questions about how the company must be interested in the decline of its own product... yeah, actually, I honestly do view that as ill intent. But I'm responding in good faith by actually addressing each point, rather than simply voting to close as not seeking any real input from the community (an argument I think has quite a strong case). I agree SE can do a lot better by its contributors/vets. That has no bearing on how you act as an individual, though.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:48 comment added TylerH @Patrice Um, what? The blog says that minorities can often made to feel unwelcome (in general) and says that last year the site started taking steps to ensure that's not the case here, and that they have a lot more efforts planned. If anything, that shows good faith. It doesn't accuse SO users of being bigots or being unwelcoming at all, which is what a lot of people interpreted last year's blog post to be saying.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:46 comment added fbueckert And assuming the question was asked with ill intent. Meh. Yeah, we can assume good faith, but actions speak louder than words. SE has a lot to answer for if they want to regain the trust they've lost over the last year.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:45 comment added TylerH @fbueckert Yes, that's how any social system works. There will always be people who don't assume good faith or put in a good effort. If everyone gives up and starts assuming everyone else is out to get them or score a quick buck then society fails, and this website is no different. If you want SO to be good, keep being a good contributor. Vote to close, comment, educate, etc. If you don't want SO to be good, stop doing that. As far as your whataboutism point, I'm just responding point by point to Cindy's question.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:44 comment added Patrice @TylerH just like, the blog post could have assumed good faith and the fact we are moderating content, not being discriminatory? This is a debacle, because each side keeps on asking of the other to use good faith, while being incapable of using it themselves.... it's a weird dichotomy to be honest. But overall, the main issue is that Stack has a goal: make money, which implies things like "get the most users to join and stay". And that doesn't work with the "heavy moderation" philosophy of Stack
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:42 comment added fbueckert I would disagree. I would say this is an extension of the actions SE has taken over the last few years. For someone who says we're supposed to assume good faith...I'm not seeing a whole lot coming from you about this question. You yourself are jumping to seeing ill-intent. As for those homework questions, there are so many that assume downvotes and closure are hostile, egotistical, elitest, etc., etc. No good faith going on there. But it's always the curators that have to continually, ad nauseum, assume good faith, because the poor new user just doesn't know any better.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:40 comment added TylerH @CindyMeister That's a question that is off-topic/close-worthy. What's your point? That kind of question has been asked for years and has been close-worthy just as long.
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:39 comment added TylerH @fbueckert Yes, I have seen the amount of no-effort questions we get, and I am a very prolific close voter of questions. That's also not what I'm referring to when I say assuming ill intent. People not knowing (even if it's not bothering to read the help center) our rules are not posting with ill intent... they are simply ignorant. Laziness is not malice. We should educate them and expect them to know the rules, yes, but we also should assume good faith. CIndy's question here jumps to the worst possible conclusions that aren't backed up by the blog post
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:33 comment added TylerH @Magisch "that have to code" If you "have" to code, it's for your job, no? For students, academic work or research is their "job".
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:10 history edited BoltClockMod CC BY-SA 4.0
added 1 character in body
Jan 21, 2019 at 17:02 comment added Cindy Meister glaring example of what we're dealing with, more and more: stackoverflow.com/questions/54294336/…
Jan 21, 2019 at 16:52 comment added fbueckert You should not assume such ill intent of people, whether it's newbies asking questions, or people writing blog posts. Er. Have you seen the amount of no-effort homework questions we get? There's no assumption of ill intent; it's literally right there for curators to look at and have to deal with.
Jan 21, 2019 at 16:51 comment added Magisch doing it because they enjoy it or because it's their job. I don't know anyone who codes as a hobby and doesn't enjoy it... Unless you expand the definition of "professional" to include science students everywhere that have to code these days, quite a few people who dont have it as a hobby or do it for work code.
Jan 21, 2019 at 16:44 history answered TylerH CC BY-SA 4.0