Timeline for What is SE's (the company) mission statement for their websites, and in particular SO?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
35 events
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Jun 4, 2020 at 12:58 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
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Dec 10, 2018 at 4:34 | comment | added | Ian Kemp | Nice, so my comment using this answer as an analogy for domestic abuse was deleted. I guess it must've offended somebody... about the time censorship starts to creep in, is when you know that it's curtains for a site with a community. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:40 | comment | added | Servy | @TylerH Pushing out the experts and leaving the site to just coast on the content it already has will be great in the short term. Sure, it'll take a good while, years most likely, for the content on the site to age to the point where it's not at least one of the primary resources for programmers looking for answers, but if you start looking 3-5 years or more out, then yeah, they need experts here answering questions. Content goes out of date, new fields come up, etc. That veteran users are taking a longer term view doesn't mean they don't understand the business. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:26 | comment | added | Servy | @fbueckert As others have said, a big factor here is a lack of competition in the realm of "programming Q/A sites attempting to hold a high standard of quality for questions and answers". Too many people are here just because the competitors aren't even pretending to have a focus on quality and to claim that low quality questions aren't welcome. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:23 | comment | added | fbueckert | @Servy That is a good point. I guess it's a bit naive to assume that a short uptick in crap would make SE listen to those it needs to survive. I appreciate the effort that Tim, Shog, and Catija put in to make it more transparent, but I feel most of it equates to PR spin than actual constructive change. It might be time to just pack it in and let the horde of clueless new users try to keep things going. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:14 | comment | added | Servy | @fbueckert Sure, if SO continues to not address the problems they have, or, as they're currently doing, exacerbate them, then people will leave, fewer good reference material will be posted, and people will start looking elsewhere for that information. It'll take a long time for the existing knowledge base to age to the point of it not attracting lots of traffic though. But my main point was that you couldn't really organize an official strike that would include enough people and last long enough for SO to really notice. It's too big, and it would take too long to make an impact. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:10 | comment | added | fbueckert | @Servy That part is going to happen organically as it is. The point I'm making is that enough people stop actively curating, the uptick in crap that survives will just hasten that end. You can't both give users agency to curate quality content, and then tell them they're doing it wrong after several years. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:06 | comment | added | Servy | @fbueckert Strikes, by their nature, generally need to be able to be successful in the short term. SO is designed to be an archive of information. For it to really hurt the bottom line it's archive needs to cover a notably smaller percentage of programming questions people have. That'd take a long time. It will happen eventually if new good content stops being posted (or greatly slows down) but will require new important topics SO doesn't currently cover, and that people are seeking answers on, before the company's bottom line really suffers. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:02 | comment | added | fbueckert | I'm well aware of the focus is. I think they're gambling on the goodwill built up over years sustaining the site over the years, and gambling hard. That goodwill is not infinite, and at some point, they're going to run into the fact that a site built on user participation means those users also have a rather major voice. I bet a general curator strike might actually have an impact to make that voice known a bit more bluntly than the formless grumbling we're all currently engaged in. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 22:01 | comment | added | Servy | I would also argue that most of the veteran users aren't sitting around arguing for major fundamental improvements the platform and upset at a lack of new features. Yes, it's frankly embarrassing when the site can't so much as fix labels or descriptions that are just flat out wrong. A trivial amount of dev time, on minor fixes would have great return on investment. But that's not the biggest cause of friction. The biggest problem (recently) is SE's implementation of changes that actively hurts the quality of content. I'd be happier if they just did what they did in years past and did nothing. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 21:56 | comment | added | TylerH | @fbueckert And I'd bet you $100 that Stack Overflow has performed many cost-benefit analyses and studied growth projections to help determine its course(s) of action. These business decisions are made intentionally and are informed. Also keep in mind that the board of directors and executives consist of people who aren't Stack Overflow true believers or OG users... many may not have an account at all! It's of course fine to disagree with their course of action or think it's wrong; no business' leaders/management ever agree 100% on something, but it's the decision of the board/CEO that count. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 21:46 | comment | added | TylerH | @opa keep in mind they don't need the expert-level contributors so much anymore as the site has reached critical mass, more or less, and there are almost no new really great questions asked anymore compared to the days of yesteryear. It's not critical that people as skilled/knowledgeable as Jon Skeet, Eric Lippert, Hans Passant, etc. stick around and keep answering... the kinds of questions most people ask today can be answered by people with only a few months to a few years of experience in that language/technology. These folks typically aren't as demanding/nostalgic for "Old SO". | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 21:44 | comment | added | TylerH | @opa your responses only serve to underscore my point about Meta not understanding/appreciating how a business is run from a decision-making perspective. They are not ignoring the community; at worst they are not acquiescing to the requests (or demands, really) of a small subset of the site. They're banking on that vocal group being a minority and on enough SMEs being OK with how the site is maintained/company is run to stick around. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 20:22 | comment | added | Makoto | @opa: Keep shouting about what is most important to you for this site to be sustainable and maintainable for decades to come. This way, the PMs can hear you. But that doesn't mean you get the privilege of slagging off their efforts when you don't feel like they're moving as fast as you want them to on the things you want them to move on. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 15:06 | comment | added | fbueckert | "I think the reason folks in the Meta community get so upset is that they fail to appreciate or understand the interests of Stack Overflow the company." - I very much disagree. We know exactly what SE is doing. We're just looking longer term. Focusing primarily on growth means the very reason for their success, the experts, evaporates, and once critical mass is lost, the company is going to circle the drain. I understand just fine the company has to make money. I just disagree that all this new user pandering will help sustain that success. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 14:39 | comment | added | Krupip | @Makoto You've advocated personally that we should keep shouting. Yet you give this company the benefit of the doubt at every chance you get. If you want to believe that they have literally no choice because of their priorities but to ignore the entire community, then fine, but you spreading around stockholm syndrome isn't going to help change things. The fact remains that regardless of how difficult these changes are, they've got the capability to implement them, and even if they came in at a pace 10X slower than before it would still be infinitely better than what we're getting now. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 2:47 | comment | added | Makoto | @opa: You underestimate the complexity of the site. From your perspective these seem simple; from the company's perspective, they aren't and they have been enumerated on before on Meta and Meta Stack Exchange. A last point - their priorities aren't your priorities, and it'd be worth understanding and respecting that before believing that they're somehow incompetent because they didn't address your wish list. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 2:46 | comment | added | Makoto | @opa: We in the community can handle tag edits, so staff don't need to get involved there. Help pages are largely uniform across the network so a change in one may require changes in them all. The same is true for flags with some limitations in the ability for communities to add custom flags for their needs, and there is a limit to the amount of custom reasons that can be active for flags. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 1:11 | comment | added | Krupip | @Makoto You really think literally editing the description of tags, help pages, or other already existing text only resources is so complex that SE can't be bothered to update them? you might just be able to argue that for flag increases (ui size increases, new metric to track, etc) but I still am not convinced that these kinds of changes are expensive enough to out right ignore the curators of SO. If something as simple as a line of text on the help page is that complicated to edit then there is something fundamentally wrong with the way SE manages their site. | |
Dec 6, 2018 at 0:35 | comment | added | jscs | I have really never understood the thing where people assume that the developers working on the premiere programming site in the world are incompetent at programming. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:44 | comment | added | Jongware | @Makoto: it's a fair point. The interns at our office are supervised, and we simply don't allow them to mail a shoddy job to our customers. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:40 | comment | added | kabanus | Check our Google's mission statement in the OP comment thread - no one doubts they're after money, but the statement helps clarify their intentions and path to gain money. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:39 | comment | added | Makoto | @opa: Do not presume to know how complex a system would be to upgrade merely by using it. You sit in a position of absolute privilege in that you do not have to think about any of the complexities or intricacies of how a change on form A will impact users on feature set B. It is highly irresponsible and even downright offensive to suggest that this could be done by interns, as if the developers of Stack Overflow don't already have enough to deal with. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:38 | comment | added | jscs | Good writeup, though! | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:37 | comment | added | jscs | "the fact that it has the biggest pool of programmers/software developers/tech-savvy users in the world" For the moment. And due to the fact that "as of yet there is not really a viable competitor". But that field becomes more fertile with every contributor who "got fed up and left". At some point someone is going to make SO their arch-enemy...and then where will the users that write the content that generates the revenue go? | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:36 | comment | added | Jongware |
@opa: "These are features that could be implemented by a goddamn intern..." – please take a look at tag:bug every time someone decides to change the Theme, add a sidebar, or mess up the z-order. This maintenance is clearly done by interns.
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Dec 5, 2018 at 23:33 | comment | added | kabanus | I'll edit a bit to clarify. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:33 | comment | added | kabanus | Thanks for the story comprehensive analysis. I realize though my question title is a bit misleading, as this is not really an answer - I was looking for a mission statement, but I realize "bottom line" is a misleading phrase here. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:33 | comment | added | Krupip | I don't buy this, a very large amount of feature requests would take very minimal effort (like creating new flag reasons and changing the descriptions on a few flags). These are features that could be implemented by a single goddamn intern, Management at SO must be so astronomically incompetent they can't schedule even slow updates to the moderation user experience for the past 3 years. Something else is going on and it really just doesn't make sense, its fine if the majority of focus is on monetary products, SO really doesn't need much change except from tools for moderators. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:25 | comment | added | anatolyg | @TylerH Thanks you for your interesting post! Very enlightening. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:17 | comment | added | Makoto | It reads like hearsay to me. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's the kind of deliberate phrasing that would fuel conspiracy theories. Believe what you wanna though; nothing's actually official until an actual employee chimes in. Who knows - that OP may be telling the truth all along. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:15 | comment | added | TylerH | @Makoto To be fair, I didn't click through to read the comment OP linked to until just now. It looks like that 127-rep user does have an ace up their sleeve though; they are citing a direct confirmation from company management that the Meta community is wrong. It'd be nice for them to be brave enough and come say how they actually feel, if that's the case, but I doubt we'll ever see that. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:13 | comment | added | Makoto | On a serious note, I see some things here which are common sense but I also feel like this gargantuan response is a knee-jerk overreaction to a fairly obvious truth. What's worse is that this was spurred on by someone with all of 127 reputation to begin with. Not as sold that person has seen as many hatless winters as we have. | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:12 | comment | added | Makoto | "Stack Overflow is like Facebook" - you want me to buy some soap so we can wash that filth out of your mouth? :) | |
Dec 5, 2018 at 23:05 | history | answered | TylerH | CC BY-SA 4.0 |