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Nov 8, 2018 at 17:18 comment added WBT As a pointer for anyone who comes along later: If you have input into the discussion about whether or not homework questions should be labeled as such, or want to see what consensus may exist by the time you read this, go here. I hoped that would reduce the need to argue about whether or not such a discussion exists, and keep this meta question focused on what it's intended to be about.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:52 comment added WBT I still think you can write an answer that includes most of the content from your upvoted comment above, and states your apparent view that the most relevant content from elsewhere on meta should be summarized in FAQ answers. You can do that without focusing criticism on one particular edit that you disagree with for other reasons. You can say you think that particular content wasn't relevant enough but focus the answer on the decision rule you think should apply. Then this answer will be more generally useful.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:23 comment added Servy @WBT That one person rolled it back doesn't mean it hasn't been agreed on that homework questions don't need to disclose that they're homework, it just means that there's a small minority that disagrees. My answer applies to other edits. Having some portions of answers repeating content is fine, if it's on topic (although if there's too much duplication they're likely duplicate questions), but repeating off topic information is not.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:17 comment added WBT Your opening sentence and answer here are picking on my specific edit, not answering the meta question about what the decision rule should be. Your upvoted comment answers the question, even though its opening sentence picks on me for having a position I don't.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:17 comment added WBT Someone did realize that information they disagreed with was in there, and removed it in r8. That apparently didn't reflect consensus or last long. Discussion about a homework tag was linked from the answer which still said the question should disclose it's homework, apparently so as to explain the artificial constraints. I don't wish to discuss the merits of that point here, but I thought changing something that stood for years and resisted prior change deserved its own discussion first.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:15 comment added Servy @WBT My answer is about the relevance of the topic. That's literally the opening sentence of the answer. I specifically say that repetition is fine, if it's on topic in both places, but that it's not on topic in both places here. That's the whole second paragraph.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:14 comment added Servy @WBT Then apparently someone else didn't realize that that incorrect information had been in there for so long, given that it's so widely agreed on that it's not appropriate, and made a mistake. Given that you were trying to add in new information at around the same time, just not that section, it's a fairly understandable mistake. If you want discussions, here is one, and it links to numerous others.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:09 comment added WBT @Sergey In your answer to this meta question, you should put your upvoted comment above and say that the decision rule should be about the relevance of the content to the topic, instead of about whether or not the information exists elsewhere on meta.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:08 comment added WBT You were not accused of "creating a new rule" by including that section. Yes, I was. The r24 comment was "There is no such rule. We do not create new rules in community wikis. We add them if they exist. If you think there should be such a rule please start a discussion first." The only change that editor made was removing the "Admit that the question is homework" paragraph. If it's been "discussed to death," that should be easy to show with a link to the discussion where that happened. There was a linked discussion about not using a tag but the main point to disclose remained.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:04 comment added Servy @WBT When and how answers should be accepted is entirely off topic in a question about how to ask and answer homework questions. It just has nothing to do with that question. So while your guidance was wrong, more importantly, it was irrelevant. As my answer here says, it wasn't removed because, "some other answer somewhere talks about it", it was removed because it's off topic to the question asked. The repetition could potentially be fine if it was on topic in multiple places. It wasn't.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:02 comment added Servy You were not accused of "creating a new rule" by including that section. You were accused of "creating a new rule" when you added the whole new section saying that people should be thanking answers posted, because your statements are not in line with the existing consensus, and it was also stated that the section was entirely off topic, regardless of its correctness, and that it doesn't belong there.
Nov 8, 2018 at 15:02 comment added Servy @WBT The sad reality is that the FAQs are not always particularly well maintained. Lots of people have discussions on topics and don't always update the FAQs based on those discussions. There sadly are, fairly often, incorrect information sitting in FAQs for long periods of time. Someone noticed one, and fixed it. You, and others, continued to roll it back despite the fact that whether homework questions need to be marked as such has been discussed to death and the consensus came to be that homework questions should be treated as any other type of question, and not marked as such.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:59 comment added WBT Recommending that people mark an answer accepted when it was particularly helpful and follow the terms required by the license does not seem to be improper guidance nor off topic for new users asking homework questions. Whether that was relevant or not could have been the main focus of comments but instead the main disagreement was if FAQ can/should have only unique content or summarize the most important points from elsewhere. That is what this meta question here is intended to focus on.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:57 comment added WBT I don't understand why you keep saying there was a "well defined consensus" that differs from the FAQ point that stood for years and resisted a prior attempt at removal, and was contradicted by light discussion but never had a substantive discussion on point by itself. I was then falsely accused of creating something new when in fact that "new" rule I was allegedly creating was something that had stood in the FAQ for years. If someone wanted to change that rule, I think they should have started a separate discussion on that point.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:54 comment added Servy So what happened was you added in a section of the FAQ that was both entirely off topic, and also improper guidance in general. Someone else rolled it back, and also changed another improper section while they were there to be in line with a very well defined consensus. There was then some rollbacks between other users, as well as some edits to change the wordings of different sections, you eventually added a section that seems appropriate, then a bunch of rollbacks/rewordings happened, one of which was yours, until it was eventually locked.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:54 comment added Servy @WBT I apologize, I had forgotten some of the relevant facts of changes to that post and as a result I've accepted statements of yours as fact when I should have disputed them long ago.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:50 comment added WBT That last comment is finally approaching an answer to this meta question, thank you. I think that comment would be much better as an answer to this question. Yes, I do think the changes were accurate representations of community rules and guidelines, but the decision rule I was up against there was whether or not it summarized information elsewhere in meta and if so it should NOT be included in the FAQ, instead of whether or not the FAQ contents was an accurate representation of community rules and guidelines. This comment takes a decision rule aligned with what I thought the FAQ is for.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:49 comment added Servy @WBT You seem to be under the impression that the FAQ is prescriptive of what the rules are. It's not. It's descriptive. Something being in an FAQ doesn't make it a rule, the FAQs are there to summarize the rules and guidelines that the community has. If you honestly think that all of those changes that you made are accurate representations of the communities rules and guidelines, then don't hide behind, "I just didn't want them changed", and justify your reasons for feeling they belong there.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:47 comment added WBT Also, please don't accuse me of abuse for "continuing to revert a change." I made one rollback in that whole history; others made other rollbacks that restored the same content that had been there for years. I really don't appreciate all the false accusations here.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:45 comment added WBT There's definitely disagreement though. I was rolling back a substantive change to rules that had stood for years because I didn't think such a change should happen without a specific discussion, agreeing on principle with the editor who rolled back the edit falsely accusing me of adding something new without discussion when that content had been there from the beginning of that answer and only recently removed without substantive discussion on that point as side damage when someone was reverting another edit on a different point.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:43 comment added Servy @WBT You can just do a search on "Homework" on meta to see that consensus. Someone doesn't need to make a meta discussion before every single edit to an FAQ page. There's only a need for a meta discussion if there's disagreement. You can't just go around rolling back every single edit to every single FAQ until someone posts a discussion to ask permission. If you think their change is wrong, you can either discuss it in comments, or if it's not quickly resolved, start a discussion on it. But continuing to revert a change that you don't even disagree with is frankly bordering on abuse.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:40 comment added WBT I was trying to leave the portion of the post that had stood for years and was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make alone, as it had been. I didn't think anybody else should make such a significant change to the rule without a discussion on the point and if there had been discussion on the point it should have been linked to from there, as others requested happen with the link to the discussion about use of a homework tag. Where can I see that there has been a long consensus that differs from what's stood for a long time in the SO FAQ specifically about homework questions?
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:37 comment added Servy @WBT If you weren't trying to dispute that point, then why did you keep adding it back in every time it was changed? As for labeling posts as homework, just through some of the hundreds of posts about the homework tag (which is precisely about whether homework questions should be labeled as such). You can see that there has been a long consensus that whether or not a question is related to a homework problem is irrelevant to the question. They should simply ask their question, and there's no need to ask someone if it's homework related or not.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:33 comment added WBT Whether or not a person needs to label a question as being a homework question seems entirely on-topic for a post about how to ask and answer homework questions. I wasn't trying to discuss that point at all, I was focused on something different, and wanted to keep any needed discussion on that. If someone wanted to remove the other point that had been there for years and someone had unsuccessfully attempted removal before, I think a separate meta discussion would have been appropriate, but nobody wanted to start one.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:31 comment added Servy @WBT I'm not really interested in doing your research for you. (And honestly the fact that it's entirely off topic is grounds enough to remove it, so I'm not really interested in spending time debating it further.) If you were concerned about it you could have asked the editors for that in comments. That would have been appropriate, rather than just constantly rolling it back.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:28 comment added WBT I agree that point would best be a separate meta discussion. Can you link to discussions that show the consensus directly contradicting the FAQ point on that topic?
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:27 comment added Servy @WBT There have been lots of discussions on those topics. The changes made were well in line with current community consensus, as has been discussed numerous times in various meta discussions. The discussion doesn't need to happen in the comments of that FAQ.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:24 comment added WBT There should have been a separate discussion about that then, as indicated by the person who took it out with the point that a separate discussion was needed. Why do you say it was out of date with the consensus, if there wasn't discussion? It was in the FAQ like that and the post got all those upvotes with that rule in there.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:21 comment added Servy @WBT That wasn't "a rule that has stood for years". The FAQ was out of date with the community's consensus for years, and it has been off topic for the entirety of the time it was in that post. Someone noticed and went to fix it. You kept reverting it, despite it not being appropriate advice (both in general, and also, because it's off topic in that post). It's not just always okay to revert any change anyone makes to an FAQ by claiming, "I was trying to not disturb a rule that has stood for years".
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:19 comment added Servy @WBT I, frankly, don't believe you. I read a good amount of the comments, although admittedly not all of them. I can't really prove you wrong unless a moderator posts the deleted comments, but between the comments that I did see, and my experiences with the people you were talking to, I highly doubt anyone told you that. You must have misinterpreted what they were saying, or missed some qualifications.
Nov 8, 2018 at 14:17 comment added WBT People aren't telling you that it's never appropriate for any post to ever include information found in some other meta post You may have missed the comments, which are now gone. Yes, I was being told that as the decision rule. Also, the discussion wasn't about the "label questions as homework" point, which had nothing to do with the edit I was trying to make. I was not trying to disturb a rule that had stood for years, whether I agree or not. To be chastised for doing so seemed a bit harsh.
Nov 7, 2018 at 19:53 history edited Servy CC BY-SA 4.0
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Nov 7, 2018 at 19:35 history answered Servy CC BY-SA 4.0