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Sep 16, 2018 at 7:52 comment added jxh @ivan_pozdeev I adjusted the description. Votes and answers limited to badge owners. If the high-rep participants know the question will likely get auto-closed for not graduating, there is little need to downvote it.
Sep 16, 2018 at 7:50 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Sep 16, 2018 at 7:15 comment added ivan_pozdeev How does "leaving the question unvoteable" coincide with "votes promote it into a good-question status"? Are you suggesting to only ban downvotes for the "super-protected" period? I don't see you saying so in the post when describing it.
Sep 16, 2018 at 7:11 comment added jxh @ivan_pozdeev I assert that new contributors choose not to continue to participate because of the negative associations with getting downvotes. I am suggesting to reduce the chance of downvoting by leaving the question unvoteable until it is graduated, and to also alleviate the negative associations of downvotes by showing you net reputation for getting it. I argue this is not inappropriate, since downvotes do increase your experience and is a measure of your participation. I am unconcerned about rep imbalance, I am merely making suggestions to increase positive participation by newbies.
Sep 16, 2018 at 4:24 comment added ivan_pozdeev About votes, I already explained how the imbalance between reputation from upvote and downvote allows an author of controversial posts to break even.
Sep 16, 2018 at 4:18 comment added ivan_pozdeev What you're suggesting amounts to questions starting with -1 score instead of 0 (i.e. in roomba-eligible state). Forcing visitors to manually triage the question before anyone can answer... I doubt this can fly 'cuz that'll add a lot of lag -- it's no longer possible to get an answer within minutes or even hours, and I cannot give an answer if I know it, will have to somehow bookmark the question and remember to return to it later.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:36 comment added jxh @fbueckert Currently, the mode most similar to what I suggest are "holds" on questions that were voted to lack merit. My suggestion would be similar to asking that questions from new users get automatically put on "hold" until reviewed by the community. If the backlog is too large, the "held" questions that timeout are simply deleted. There is really no additional work. The new user will need to proactively try to get their question, probably via chat or meta, and that would be where mentoring would take place.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:24 comment added fbueckert That's only a tiny part of your suggestion. That's why I said parts have merit, but the whole is untenable. As is, if the question gets deleted, they already lose the rep they gained from it. Your suggestion just makes it happen a little sooner. Doesn't seem to have stopped answering bad questions. I want curators to be drowning in less crap, so they can find questions they actually want to answer, instead of trying to lift the junk to, "merely acceptable". The scales inherent here make individualized support a pipe dream.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:19 comment added jxh @fbueckert: If you insist, but just consider that it is currently too easy to rep-whore bad questions, and this encourages the bad behavior of fly-by users with bad questions. If you make it harder to earn rep with an answer on a bad question, fly-by users will give up, but those that really want an answer will try to improve the question.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:13 comment added fbueckert I disagree. You're focusing too much on what a user does, instead of the content they post. I don't think we're going to come to any agreement here, so I think we're going to need to respectfully agree to disagree.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:09 comment added fbueckert My stance is rooted in personal responsibility; users are responsible for their own behaviour. They are not entitled to an answer. They are not entitled to help. They need to invest enough of their own effort to generate a question good enough to attract attention to get help. None of your suggestions really help with those users; all they do is prop up those who already demonstrate the inability to actually put effort in.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:07 comment added fbueckert Mentoring such users does nothing but exhaust the mentors, thereby depleting the ability to actually help curate content that's at least somewhat acceptable, instead of the deplorably bad stuff.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:04 comment added fbueckert I don't think your view of new users is really based in reality. Everything negative that happens to them is arbitrary? I don't think so. Standards are applied at least somewhat consistently, or SO just wouldn't work at all. As for rep preservation...many of them don't care; they'll just abandon or delete the account, and make another once they have another problem. They're not here to help. They're here to get help.
Aug 31, 2018 at 18:03 comment added fbueckert Yes, respect is earned. And by dumping a homework or other low effort question on us, they show the respect they hold for SO. Removal (and application!) of rep is an understandable event, and effort gets rewarded, like it should.
Aug 31, 2018 at 17:58 comment added fbueckert You're also assuming that all users want to be contributing users. The vast majority don't care about SO at all. All they want is their problem solved, with the minimum amount of effort on their part. You don't encourage that behaviour; you treat it with the same respect as they show the site.
Aug 31, 2018 at 17:56 comment added fbueckert You're assuming all bad questions get closed. Even there, though, rewarding an attempt sends the wrong message. It says, "Thanks for trying, it's not what we wanted, but here's a treat anyways!" It just encourages the wrong behaviour. Then their question gets closed, we take it away, and now they're just confused as to what happened. It rewards initial behaviour, and then punishes them once curation is done with them. That's far more frustrating than just straight up telling them, "This is wrong. Don't do that."
Aug 31, 2018 at 17:52 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Aug 31, 2018 at 17:19 comment added fbueckert Figured the discussion should happen on your answer. How is giving rep for low quality content a good thing? How is pushing yet more work onto the curators a good thing? About the only thing I think out of all your suggestions is to wipe out rep gains when a question is closed. But that already happens when the question is deleted, so it's of minimal value.
Aug 31, 2018 at 17:04 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Aug 31, 2018 at 16:36 comment added jxh @gnat The lack of willingness to stay neutral to my suggestion gives me little incentive to understand why reopening bad questions to save precious rep helps improve the quality of questions.
Aug 31, 2018 at 15:29 comment added gnat @jxh that doesn't imply what you think it implies. If you're interested in more details, just find and study discussions about this matter over here and at MSE
Aug 31, 2018 at 15:26 comment added jxh @gnat I closed the reopening loophole.
Aug 31, 2018 at 15:25 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Aug 31, 2018 at 15:21 comment added jxh @gnat That implies the talk about wanting higher quality questions is all a lie.
Aug 31, 2018 at 15:17 comment added gnat @Magisch removing rep for closed questions has been discussed several times already and so far rather firm consensus appears to be that it's a bad idea because it carries risk of a terrible backslash: people will just stop closing or push for reopening of inappropriate questions as the way to save their precious repz
Aug 31, 2018 at 10:53 comment added jxh @AndréKool So the two cases are: a low-quality contribution, and a controversial contribution. For low-quality, the rep goes away anyhow if the question is closed. So, there is nothing gained by incurring ill will with taking 2 points away per downvote. Instead, the loss of rep occurs when the question is closed when they were unable to convert it to a high-quality one. I think this is a stronger incentive to improve a post. For controversial questions, a mix of up and down votes both mean the contribution is generating traffic to the site, so it should be considered a net positive.
Aug 31, 2018 at 10:52 comment added André Kool Even at -170 it's still not transparent :P
Aug 31, 2018 at 10:49 comment added user3956566 for answers on meta, not sure - it's a grey out, not complete transparency
Aug 31, 2018 at 10:00 comment added André Kool I actually removed my downvote because this sounds very interesting. But I have a really hard time wrapping my head around your idea of giving rep for downvotes. I think you see a downvote as feedback (correct me if I'm wrong) and getting feedback is a good thing (I think it is). But I don't think you should get rep from just getting feedback, because everyone gets feedback. I think you should get rep if you acted on that feedback (positively).
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:52 comment added jxh @AndréKool: We'll see. :-)
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:46 comment added André Kool @jxh I think on meta it's a score of -8 for an answer to gray out (3 on main). And as far as I know it won't become completely transparent :)
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:42 comment added jxh @YvetteColomb: How many downvotes before the post becomes totally transparent?
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:38 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Aug 31, 2018 at 9:23 comment added André Kool This sure adds a new dimension (and a lot of text) to your answer. It sounds interesting.
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:21 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Aug 31, 2018 at 9:21 comment added Magisch removing rep for closed questions sounds interesting, for sure.
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:20 comment added jxh @AndréKool: Old questions can be grandfathered. But yes, the idea is remove already gained rep (similar to when a user is deleted).
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:13 comment added André Kool @jxh That sounds interesting. But would it also revert already gained rep when a question gets closed (think about the impact when an old and highly voted question gets closed)
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:10 comment added jxh @Rakete1111: I don't think rep should be rewarded on either questions or answers for closed questions. This should discourage answering bad questions, and encourage helping to improve the question instead.
Aug 31, 2018 at 9:08 history edited jxh CC BY-SA 4.0
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Aug 31, 2018 at 8:32 comment added Rakete1111 @jxh Idea is to slow down newbies from posting answers to bad questions. Theoretically a good idea, but you forget that there are many high-rep users that do answer bad questions.
Aug 31, 2018 at 6:59 comment added jxh @BDL If moderation actions are valuable, let there be rep.
Aug 31, 2018 at 6:57 comment added jxh @BDL I am open to freezing out any answers on super-protected questions. But, another way is to remove rep gained on an answer if it's a dup.
Aug 31, 2018 at 6:43 comment added jxh @BDL Remove the rep if the question is deleted.
Aug 31, 2018 at 6:40 comment added jxh @AndréKool Yes. Perhaps any gold badge tag holder could answer. Could go down to silver. Idea is to slow down newbies from posting answers to bad questions. If we feel rep is a measure of experience, and that you learn from making mistakes, just let it show in the rep. Retracting a downvote removes rep just like retracting an upvote.
Aug 31, 2018 at 6:37 comment added BDL Reputation for duplicate finding: Good. But why would anyone get rep for downvotes? That would mean you get privileges for not knowing how to ask/answer with good content. I also don't think that gold-badge holder are in any way better in not answering bad questions. In almost all major tags, I can show you some user with >20k who never have taken any moderator action and gain rep by answering mainly low-quality stuff
Aug 31, 2018 at 6:22 comment added user3956566 I upvoted it. It's innovative. It may not be the exact answer, but it's offering a different system. It's only by brainstorming we will find a better system (if that's what people want). I'd prefer an improvement.
Aug 31, 2018 at 5:35 comment added André Kool This won't work for smaller/new tags that sometimes don't even have gold badge holders. Also it really sounds like a the rich get richer situation with having only gold badge holders able to answer. Rep for dupes sounds nice. And seriously rep for downvotes?
Aug 31, 2018 at 1:22 comment added jxh I expect a lot of downvotes for this post...
Aug 31, 2018 at 1:21 history answered jxh CC BY-SA 4.0