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Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 history edited CommunityBot
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Aug 8, 2018 at 15:13 comment added TylerH @JeroenMostert Yes, I agree with those points, and there's also the complication of Dunning-Kruger where someone doesn't know something as evidenced by the way they asked a question: they detect that you think they don't know what they think they know, when in reality they are mistaken and simply don't know that due to said D-K effect.
Aug 8, 2018 at 15:11 comment added TylerH @NeilButterworth The best way I can think of to put it is that it means 'a tone of condescension while attempting to help or teach'... but as Makoto commented, it could also be used as a non-sexist version of 'mansplaining'.
Aug 8, 2018 at 0:42 comment added Braiam After the quality run done in years yonder, nothing has been done that ease the pains of trying to collaborate to make the site better.
Aug 8, 2018 at 0:40 comment added Braiam Shog, I will have to see this with cynicism considering my experience here. If collaboration was really a maxima that SE strive to achieve, you would be dedicating much more resources towards making said collaboration easier and more efficient and would also preempt any site specific policy that is anti-collaborative (and over all, prevent it from spilling to other sites). Instead of having to dedicate resources trying to concoct an subjective tool to police ourself, revamping the objective tools that allows better policing is more effective and measurable...
Aug 8, 2018 at 0:35 comment added Braiam @NeilButterworth that kind of attitude goes in line with "if I don't win, then I'm losing" and presumes that every interaction is a zero sum game (which in incredibly big scales kind of is, since energy spent on something can't be used for something else, but the universe has tons of it and most is just burning away without any of us using it). I admit that there are some negative sum games, but even then, the net negative is minimized by collaboration.
Aug 7, 2018 at 22:34 comment added fbueckert If by, "collaborate", you mean, "do my work for me", I can agree with that. But I'm sorta on the same page as most people; it feels too much like just rewording the issue and thereby implicitly accepting that crap gets posted and we shouldn't worry about it. That seems less like curation and more like just giving up.
Aug 7, 2018 at 22:23 comment added Taplar I'm not sure that phrasing something as "collaboration" will help the situation. Collaboration requires mutual participation. Given a situation where someone finds learning is losing, words from the post, why would these same users find participating in the situation more desirable? They just want an answer.
Aug 7, 2018 at 22:21 comment added Jeroen Mostert I think "nonconsensual teaching" is wonderful. I'm learning about mindsets I never even thought possible. I can't help but imagine Pythonesque scenes where someone goes "Help! Help! I'm being taught! Now we see the education inherent in the system!" I can see how it's really annoying if someone explains what you already know, but most questions allow you to safely infer that someone doesn't know something, otherwise they wouldn't have asked that question, or not in the way they did. Not wanting a lesson because you just want a damn answer is quite common, but I think that's something else.
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:51 comment added TylerH @Shog9 I agree with your list of behaviors explained by that interpretation, but I think only some of the times we see those behaviors can be attributed to that interpretation; I think just as often (or close to it) people behave/react that way for other reasons such as the way things were said or the fact that they're in a time crunch or don't have the desire to learn the deep underpinnings of what a null pointer is (for example)... they just need it fixed. I've certainly encountered problems before where I want to fix it but can't spend 2 weeks learning what really causes it.
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:09 comment added Makoto I hope that 's really the case then @Shog9. I want to acquiesce at this point, but seeing "learning" in that banner is really causing some tension. I'll give it a day or so and chill out instead.
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:07 comment added Radiodef With the "nonconsensual teaching", though, I thought that the point that Shog was trying to make was moreso that people feel that way or hold it as an implicit attitude, not that they necessarily expressly believe it as a philosophy.
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:05 comment added Shog9 Mod The CoC is pretty far removed from topicality or scope, @Makoto. And the folks who paste their justifications together like ransom notes from bits and pieces of "official" text have never been lacking for source material to take out of context.
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:02 comment added Makoto I should quantify - when I mean "get away with it", they have an official-looking memo stating that "this is what they told me the scope was" and thus, the holy wars begin anew. Yeah, it's been going on for a while and people just do post whatever. I just don't want to see anything official that even gives the texture of it being "maybe okay".
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:01 comment added Radiodef @NeilButterworth Well, the person who made the tweet apparently sees it that way. (I guess this is the point where some people will start mumbling about the influence of Foucault, but I've personally never read him, so I don't know if ideas like this really are his.)
Aug 7, 2018 at 21:01 comment added Shog9 Mod I'll be the first to admit, I really don't understand where an awful lot of these folks are coming from, @Neil - but I do believe that trying to understand is essential for interacting with them. Maybe this has something to do with the way schools (in the US at least) are looking more and more like prisons every year; the ex-cons I know tend to not take too kindly to stuff that reminds them of their handlers during their time incarcerated, and perhaps that's the same for ex-students.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:59 comment added user2100815 @Radiodef " If you view teaching as a power play where the teacher is the "winner" and the learner is the "loser", then teaching somebody without their consent is a hostile action." - but does any sane person see teaching like that??? I worked for years in commercial training and higher education, and I can't see how a company or a college with that attitude could possibly survive.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:58 comment added Shog9 Mod People "get away" with posting crap all the time, @Makoto. It's been a lotta years since we've been able to keep up with the amount of crap that gets posted every day; I don't think this makes one bit of difference in that regard. Here's the thing: nobody stops and asks, "am I allowed to post a half-assed question" - they just post it. The folks who get discouraged tend to be the ones who were already kinda uneasy about posting to begin with.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:56 comment added Radiodef @NeilButterworth If you view teaching as a power play where the teacher is the "winner" and the learner is the "loser", then teaching somebody without their consent is a hostile action. I guess this kind of thing is probably an eventual consequence of subscribing to a subjectivist epistemology.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:53 comment added Makoto @Shog9: I'm going to admit that I'm a bit frazzled out from the whole CoC rework as evidenced by my two posts on the CoC revisions directly. I'm a relatively simple man in this context; if I don't see the word "learning", my immediate visceral reaction won't be to think that people who say they're just trying to learn when they post a horribly broad question have some kind of viable defense that I'm not seeing. I fully agree with Servy's stance in that this really doesn't change anything, but the concern that someone's going to be able to get away with posting crap here is quite strong.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:53 comment added Servy Also, upon reflection, while there's useful information here, it doesn't seem to answer the question being asked.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:49 comment added user2100815 "Nonconsensual teaching" - what the heck does that mean?
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:48 comment added Shog9 Mod You could say that about the whole CoC @servy: it's about setting reasonable expectations for folks in a palatable way, but it doesn't actually change anything.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:43 comment added Servy So I think there's some useful insight into describing why these behaviors are causing friction, but I don't see how the different terminology proposed would do anything to fix the problem.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:42 comment added Servy The part of your answer on collaboration reads like just a re-branding of the behaviors you describe earlier without using the words "teach" or "learning". But the issue is that, at the moment, people are rarely using those words as it is when performing those actions. When someone posts an answer that exlains a concept, rather than containing code to copy-paste with no explanation, they don't often say, "Let me teach you how to X", or "You need to learn X." (Sometimes they do, but usually they don't.) They just explain the thing, or link to the duplicate, etc.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:39 comment added Servy "It suggests that Stack Overflow - that every programming site - is doomed to sooner or later end up as one of those terrible 'snippet sites'" Well, only if the site focuses on catering to those users, rather than the other people who are interested in improving their level of understanding. Just because the group you describe represents a lot of users doesn't mean they represent all users, or that a site can't function without catering to such users.
Aug 7, 2018 at 20:35 history answered Shog9Mod CC BY-SA 4.0