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May 4, 2018 at 14:17 comment added duplode @Moritz [2/2] By the way: I fully agree that things like homework dumps and reposting with multiple accounts are rude and abusive. The caveat I would add is that not all people who post problematic first questions are acting in bad faith, and that we shouldn't paint all new users with the same brush. For instance, I find the attitude shown in this question to be misguided. Jared Smith's answer there makes this point in an elegant way.
May 4, 2018 at 14:17 comment added duplode @Moritz [1/2] I don't think, too, that it will solve everything on its own (in particular, because there is also another side of the problem that has to do with effectively communicating, through the "onboarding" of new users, what we are actually trying to achieve here), but I'm convinced and hopeful that it can help.
May 4, 2018 at 14:04 comment added Eric Aya @duplode I just read the answer by Hans that you linked, I missed that earlier. This is interesting. I'm not convinced it would suddenly solve the issues that are talked about in this Q&A (and everywhere on Meta these days), but I'll make an effort in this direction if that helps at least a little bit, sure.
May 4, 2018 at 13:41 comment added deceze Mod "Were are talking to programmers" – The thing is, there's a wide variety of "programmers". Not everyone has the same personality type. Not everyone is used to blunt, direct-to-the-point communication. Not everyone is a professional programmer [just yet]. Even programmers are first and foremost people, and there's a whole lot of those with a whole lot of squishy personality…
May 4, 2018 at 13:37 comment added Eric Aya Also, something surprising to me on this site, is that people see the harshness in comments but don't see it in the poster's attitude. When someone dumps barely formatted homework and leaves for hours, I call this insulting and disrespectful. It says "hey plebs, do the work for me, better be good and ready when I come back tomorrow". This is so harsh and abusive. That's what I wanted to point out with my first comment, but I probably didn't explain myself very well.
May 4, 2018 at 13:32 comment added duplode @Moritz Good reminder on tone and non-verbal cues -- we end up having to make some adjustments to account for the lack of them. By the way, I think this is the first time I have seen this issue being raised in all of the discussions related to the Welcoming blog post, which in hindsight is kind of surprising.
May 4, 2018 at 13:27 comment added Heretic Monkey @jpp I think part of the reasoning for questions is also true for answers. From the article, amended: "If you missed an obvious piece of information, be ready to respond by editing your [answer] to include it". Seems like good advice.
May 4, 2018 at 13:22 comment added Eric Aya @duplode The thing is, I'm like that "IRL", blunt and straight to the point, with a smile. It works very well with professionals or people willing to be ones. "You're wrong here" - "How yeah, oops, let me fix that". // I understand, though, that it probably doesn't work as well in written form, when the tone is absent and there's only the words left.
May 4, 2018 at 13:17 comment added duplode @Moritz "We're talking to programmers" -- I feel the matter is quite independent of whether we are talking to programmers or not, though your comment does suggest a few interesting questions about professional ethos. Your remarks remind me of Martin James' views on the matter -- "there is nothing as pedantic as a compiler" (I'm quoting one of his recent comments from memory) -- which I ultimately disagree with. I am not a compiler :)
May 4, 2018 at 13:07 comment added jpp @MikeMcCaughan, This is advice for the asker, not for the answerer. From the answerer's perspective, a good question (even if the asker leaves SO straight after posting) may still be worth answering. If the question is lacking, then you may altruistically ask for clarification, but it is not a requirement, nor should you do so with any expectation.
May 4, 2018 at 13:02 comment added Heretic Monkey @jpp the source for "They should absolutely not dump their request..." is in the How to Ask help article, the section titled "Post the question and respond to feedback".
May 4, 2018 at 12:59 comment added Eric Aya @duplode we don't necessarily have to say that literally as "you are wrong", which is overtly confrontational That's where we disagree. :) I think it's just a fact, to me it's not mean or anything. We're talking to programmers. If something is wrong, we should say it. In my opinion.
May 4, 2018 at 12:42 comment added duplode @jpp "Thank you for demonstrating the problem. Comments are for clarification" -- Though I don't agree with most of it, I think Moritz's comment is fine from a procedural point of view. Pointing out perceived issues with an answer is a legitimate use of comments, and arguably counts as a form of asking for clarification. More generally, I don't think enforcing "comments are for clarification" in a very strict and literal way is a good idea, for the reasons mentioned in this answer.
May 4, 2018 at 12:39 comment added jpp @Moritz, Do you have a source for They should absolutely not dump their request and go away while volunteers do all the work for them? Frankly, if someone wants to post a question before going on a long-haul flight, that's fine by me. If it's a good question, it will be answered. If not, it will be downvoted and/or closed.
May 4, 2018 at 12:34 history edited jpp CC BY-SA 4.0
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May 4, 2018 at 12:32 history edited jpp CC BY-SA 4.0
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May 4, 2018 at 12:30 comment added duplode @Moritz "When someone is wrong, in a verifiable field, telling them they're wrong is good for them." -- Indeed, but we don't necessarily have to say that literally as "you are wrong", which is overtly confrontational. "[quote of wrong statement]" -- Not really, because [explanation of what is wrong] is just as good in getting the point across. Cf. the answer I made out of Hans' comment here.
May 4, 2018 at 11:31 comment added Eric Aya Do you have google is not always sarcastic. Some countries have it blocked or accessing it is not easy. You're wrong is a fact. When someone is wrong, in a verifiable field, telling them they're wrong is good for them. It's not an issue. Expect a few hours for a user to respond. No, absolutely not. When someone posts a question, they should make themselves available for answering the comments or clarifying points. They should absolutely not dump their request and go away while volunteers do all the work for them.
May 4, 2018 at 11:01 history answered jpp CC BY-SA 4.0