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halfer
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The problem is your belief that (a) programming is actually a meritocracy in some pure and perfect sense and (b) so-called "merit" is a perfect blind evaluator that doesn't just serve as a an excuse to engage in what often ends up being behavior with heavy bias correlation outcomes.

If StackOverflowStack Overflow has a problem, it's because StackOverflowStack Overflow incentivizes certain patterns of behavior, while leaving no space for others

StackOverflowStack Overflow treats only certain types of learning as valid. If you don't read this and you ask a "bad question", you are punished. By your post, you even claim that people who ask these "bad questions" deserve to be punished because they aren't high enough in the "meritocracy" to be worth a response.

The question is a matter of perspective, and also defining objectives: what makes StackOverflowStack Overflow a quality site. As someone who almost never needs to ask questions, because she can pull together an answer faster on her own than trying to explain what she needs to ask when hitting a wall, I know what qualities make StackOverflowStack Overflow valuable to me. But I'm not everyone.

Pretty much none of my coworkers participate on StackOverflowStack Overflow except to mine it for solutions. Particularly the junior developers are afraid of asking anything at all. And that's a loss. Because in the nuance of the questions they would have asked, from the directions they were approaching problems, there would have been something helpful for other junior developers.

StackOverflowStack Overflow tries to wrap questions and answers up into certain formulaic points of what will make them a good question or answer "in general". And in many regards, that's fantastic. But it also falls down a hole of ascribing a certain sense of this being a perfectly objective measure of quality, which is how we arrive at posts talking about quality and merit as gatekeepers.

The real issue, to me, is that if you fall outside certain lines in asking or answering a question, there is quickly the impression given that there is little room for you on StackOverflowStack Overflow, that you are to be knocked down and away as harshly as possible simply for what quickly can feel like it was simply for daring to open your mouth at all. You didn't RTFM hard enough, and you didn't Google it good enough. And in the end the message is that: it's you, so just shut up, give up, and walk away.

There are plenty of times where I've sat down with someone with a StackOverflowStack Overflow page open and worked through how to suss out the information they needed from what was there in terms of what's in front of them and not working correctly right now. Everyone here likes to claim "it's obvious" and therefor "that's a quality question/answer". Well, the problem is that no matter how many Manuals you can tell someone they "didn't fucking read", at the end of the day if it's not obvious to them, it wasn't "quality" for them.

To me, the problem that StackOverflowStack Overflow really faces is one of community and behavior, and how certain forms of behavior the site incentivizes through various structuring is resulting in outcomes that fall along bias lines.

But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings. I'm sorry you that post impacted you like that.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and "judged" on StackOverflowStack Overflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

And I think that if you feel demonized due to the outcomes being called out, you need to take a long hard look at yourself, and maybe develop a little empathy for the other people who are on the receiving end of certain behavior and interactions related to the underlying structures of StackOverflowStack Overflow and the particular form of community/"community" that is grown around them.

There is a lot of behavior encoded in certain aspects of StackOverflowStack Overflow that are meant to help people find good answers, but when removed from a broader view is easy to internalize as basically being shot down without any actually constructive feedback, but at most, often, just derision.

I think a lot of people come to StackOverflowStack Overflow, make what to them was a well meaning attempt, and leave feeling demonized. They're looked down upon in so many ways, with their intent read in to, judged, and summarily dismissed as, among other things, "not quality". And often, it's made to feel either personal, as if they aren't good enough, or so dismissively impersonal and disconnected as to be degrading. Somewhere between these two points there has to be room for some empathy and mutual sympathy.

There's a lot of concern over "diversity" as if it's somehow the opposite of "meritocracy", and to me that says a lot about that particular vision of merit. Instead what I see is a concern about making a site better, but for everyone. It's not about putting down the few who are already in and doing well with how it currently works, but making room for more and an overall improvement in the process. This doesn't need to be a zero summed-sum game, and it's interesting but saddening to me that some people are latching on to it in this way, and immediately placing it in that framing.

The problem is your belief that (a) programming is actually a meritocracy in some pure and perfect sense and (b) so-called "merit" is a perfect blind evaluator that doesn't just serve as a an excuse to engage in what often ends up being behavior with heavy bias correlation outcomes.

If StackOverflow has a problem, it's because StackOverflow incentivizes certain patterns of behavior, while leaving no space for others

StackOverflow treats only certain types of learning as valid. If you don't read this and you ask a "bad question", you are punished. By your post, you even claim that people who ask these "bad questions" deserve to be punished because they aren't high enough in the "meritocracy" to be worth a response.

The question is a matter of perspective, and also defining objectives: what makes StackOverflow a quality site. As someone who almost never needs to ask questions, because she can pull together an answer faster on her own than trying to explain what she needs to ask when hitting a wall, I know what qualities make StackOverflow valuable to me. But I'm not everyone.

Pretty much none of my coworkers participate on StackOverflow except to mine it for solutions. Particularly the junior developers are afraid of asking anything at all. And that's a loss. Because in the nuance of the questions they would have asked, from the directions they were approaching problems, there would have been something helpful for other junior developers.

StackOverflow tries to wrap questions and answers up into certain formulaic points of what will make them a good question or answer "in general". And in many regards, that's fantastic. But it also falls down a hole of ascribing a certain sense of this being a perfectly objective measure of quality, which is how we arrive at posts talking about quality and merit as gatekeepers.

The real issue, to me, is that if you fall outside certain lines in asking or answering a question, there is quickly the impression given that there is little room for you on StackOverflow, that you are to be knocked down and away as harshly as possible simply for what quickly can feel like it was simply for daring to open your mouth at all. You didn't RTFM hard enough, and you didn't Google it good enough. And in the end the message is that: it's you, so just shut up, give up, and walk away.

There are plenty of times where I've sat down with someone with a StackOverflow page open and worked through how to suss out the information they needed from what was there in terms of what's in front of them and not working correctly right now. Everyone here likes to claim "it's obvious" and therefor "that's a quality question/answer". Well, the problem is that no matter how many Manuals you can tell someone they "didn't fucking read", at the end of the day if it's not obvious to them, it wasn't "quality" for them.

To me, the problem that StackOverflow really faces is one of community and behavior, and how certain forms of behavior the site incentivizes through various structuring is resulting in outcomes that fall along bias lines.

But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings. I'm sorry you that post impacted you like that.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and "judged" on StackOverflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

And I think that if you feel demonized due to the outcomes being called out, you need to take a long hard look at yourself, and maybe develop a little empathy for the other people who are on the receiving end of certain behavior and interactions related to the underlying structures of StackOverflow and the particular form of community/"community" that is grown around them.

There is a lot of behavior encoded in certain aspects of StackOverflow that are meant to help people find good answers, but when removed from a broader view is easy to internalize as basically being shot down without any actually constructive feedback, but at most, often, just derision.

I think a lot of people come to StackOverflow, make what to them was a well meaning attempt, and leave feeling demonized. They're looked down upon in so many ways, with their intent read in to, judged, and summarily dismissed as, among other things, "not quality". And often, it's made to feel either personal, as if they aren't good enough, or so dismissively impersonal and disconnected as to be degrading. Somewhere between these two points there has to be room for some empathy and mutual sympathy.

There's a lot of concern over "diversity" as if it's somehow the opposite of "meritocracy", and to me that says a lot about that particular vision of merit. Instead what I see is a concern about making a site better, but for everyone. It's not about putting down the few who are already in and doing well with how it currently works, but making room for more and an overall improvement in the process. This doesn't need to be a zero summed game, and it's interesting but saddening to me that some people are latching on to it in this way, and immediately placing it in that framing.

The problem is your belief that (a) programming is actually a meritocracy in some pure and perfect sense and (b) so-called "merit" is a perfect blind evaluator that doesn't just serve as an excuse to engage in what often ends up being behavior with heavy bias correlation outcomes.

If Stack Overflow has a problem, it's because Stack Overflow incentivizes certain patterns of behavior, while leaving no space for others

Stack Overflow treats only certain types of learning as valid. If you don't read this and you ask a "bad question", you are punished. By your post, you even claim that people who ask these "bad questions" deserve to be punished because they aren't high enough in the "meritocracy" to be worth a response.

The question is a matter of perspective, and also defining objectives: what makes Stack Overflow a quality site. As someone who almost never needs to ask questions, because she can pull together an answer faster on her own than trying to explain what she needs to ask when hitting a wall, I know what qualities make Stack Overflow valuable to me. But I'm not everyone.

Pretty much none of my coworkers participate on Stack Overflow except to mine it for solutions. Particularly the junior developers are afraid of asking anything at all. And that's a loss. Because in the nuance of the questions they would have asked, from the directions they were approaching problems, there would have been something helpful for other junior developers.

Stack Overflow tries to wrap questions and answers up into certain formulaic points of what will make them a good question or answer "in general". And in many regards, that's fantastic. But it also falls down a hole of ascribing a certain sense of this being a perfectly objective measure of quality, which is how we arrive at posts talking about quality and merit as gatekeepers.

The real issue, to me, is that if you fall outside certain lines in asking or answering a question, there is quickly the impression given that there is little room for you on Stack Overflow, that you are to be knocked down and away as harshly as possible simply for what quickly can feel like it was simply for daring to open your mouth at all. You didn't RTFM hard enough, and you didn't Google it good enough. And in the end the message is that: it's you, so just shut up, give up, and walk away.

There are plenty of times where I've sat down with someone with a Stack Overflow page open and worked through how to suss out the information they needed from what was there in terms of what's in front of them and not working correctly right now. Everyone here likes to claim "it's obvious" and therefor "that's a quality question/answer". Well, the problem is that no matter how many Manuals you can tell someone they "didn't fucking read", at the end of the day if it's not obvious to them, it wasn't "quality" for them.

To me, the problem that Stack Overflow really faces is one of community and behavior, and how certain forms of behavior the site incentivizes through various structuring is resulting in outcomes that fall along bias lines.

But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings. I'm sorry that post impacted you like that.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and "judged" on Stack Overflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

And I think that if you feel demonized due to the outcomes being called out, you need to take a long hard look at yourself, and maybe develop a little empathy for the other people who are on the receiving end of certain behavior and interactions related to the underlying structures of Stack Overflow and the particular form of community/"community" that is grown around them.

There is a lot of behavior encoded in certain aspects of Stack Overflow that are meant to help people find good answers, but when removed from a broader view is easy to internalize as basically being shot down without any actually constructive feedback, but at most, often, just derision.

I think a lot of people come to Stack Overflow, make what to them was a well meaning attempt, and leave feeling demonized. They're looked down upon in so many ways, with their intent read in to, judged, and summarily dismissed as, among other things, "not quality". And often, it's made to feel either personal, as if they aren't good enough, or so dismissively impersonal and disconnected as to be degrading. Somewhere between these two points there has to be room for some empathy and mutual sympathy.

There's a lot of concern over "diversity" as if it's somehow the opposite of "meritocracy", and to me that says a lot about that particular vision of merit. Instead what I see is a concern about making a site better, but for everyone. It's not about putting down the few who are already in and doing well with how it currently works, but making room for more and an overall improvement in the process. This doesn't need to be a zero-sum game, and it's interesting but saddening to me that some people are latching on to it in this way, and immediately placing it in that framing.

~various clarification/finishing up: may revisit to try to recontextualize some of this, may not.
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taswyn
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You don't like feeling "demonized" "for caring about quality," but in effect you're also making the claim that there's a polarizing line here set by those who care about quality and are on the right side of "merit" and those wonwho don't and thus aren't.

There's a lot of concern over "diversity" as if it's somehow the opposite of "meritocracy", and to me that says a lot about that particular vision of merit. Instead what I see is a concern about making a site better, but for everyone. It's not about putting down the few who are already in and doing well with how it currently works, but making room for more and an overall improvement in the process. This doesn't need to be a zero summed game, and it's interesting but saddening to me that some people are latching on to it in this way, and immediately placing it in that framing.

A lack of diversity isn't a call for initiatives to "fix diversity" as if that means forcing an outcome with equalized representation, but rather points to something being broken if the goal is to provide a quality experience for everyone rather than just certain people who find they arrived early enough or fit in just right.

You don't like feeling "demonized" "for caring about quality," but in effect you're also making the claim that there's a polarizing line here set by those who care about quality and are on the right side of "merit" and those won don't and thus aren't.

You don't like feeling "demonized" "for caring about quality," but in effect you're also making the claim that there's a polarizing line here set by those who care about quality and are on the right side of "merit" and those who don't and thus aren't.

There's a lot of concern over "diversity" as if it's somehow the opposite of "meritocracy", and to me that says a lot about that particular vision of merit. Instead what I see is a concern about making a site better, but for everyone. It's not about putting down the few who are already in and doing well with how it currently works, but making room for more and an overall improvement in the process. This doesn't need to be a zero summed game, and it's interesting but saddening to me that some people are latching on to it in this way, and immediately placing it in that framing.

A lack of diversity isn't a call for initiatives to "fix diversity" as if that means forcing an outcome with equalized representation, but rather points to something being broken if the goal is to provide a quality experience for everyone rather than just certain people who find they arrived early enough or fit in just right.

added 539 characters in body; added 17 characters in body
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taswyn
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But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings. I'm sorry you that post impacted you like that.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and judged"judged" on StackOverflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

I think a lot of people come to StackOverflow, make what to them was a well meaning attempt, and leave feeling demonized. They're looked down upon in so many ways, with their intent read in to, judged, and summarily dismissed as, among other things, "not quality". And often, it's made to feel either personal, as if they aren't good enough, or so dismissively impersonal and disconnected as to be degrading. Somewhere between these two points there has to be room for some empathy and mutual sympathy.

But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and judged on StackOverflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

But I'll admit it was possible to read a lot of things into it. If that's how it impacted and felt to you, then there you go: those are your feelings. I'm sorry you that post impacted you like that.

At the same time, I think denying that the specific system of how Q&A is implemented and "judged" on StackOverflow doesn't create an structure which leads to the outcome showing the demographics seen would be an exact opposite of the objective behavior supposedly enshrined in "meritocracy".

I think a lot of people come to StackOverflow, make what to them was a well meaning attempt, and leave feeling demonized. They're looked down upon in so many ways, with their intent read in to, judged, and summarily dismissed as, among other things, "not quality". And often, it's made to feel either personal, as if they aren't good enough, or so dismissively impersonal and disconnected as to be degrading. Somewhere between these two points there has to be room for some empathy and mutual sympathy.

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taswyn
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