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Apr 30, 2018 at 20:20 comment added apaul @NicolBolas I'm not trying to defend the blog post. Ya, it wasn't as well put together and articulated as it could have been, or should have been, but it did mention a few things worth taking a look at. The part that I was most concerned with was the bit about how minorities are treated on the network, because that's the part that's most affected me personally.
Apr 30, 2018 at 20:15 comment added Nicol Bolas @apaul: "I think we're finally beginning to take a nuanced and realistic look." OK, so... where is it? Because that blog post is sorely lacking in nuance (and other things). It's so poorly written that it's basically a Rorschach test: everyone sees what they bring to it. One person sees that it clearly denounces unexplained downvotes; another person disagrees. If we want to have a "nuanced and realistic look" at any problem, we need to actually have that, not a single, poorly written blog followed by chirping crickets.
Apr 30, 2018 at 20:13 comment added Oleg @NicolBolas Possible and I can see why you think so based on the post, but I would be surprised if this is the case. I have no idea who those "problem users who drive us all apart" are, we are driven apart by SO employees. SO was fine before that blog post.
Apr 30, 2018 at 20:10 comment added apaul @NathanTuggy to keep with your law analogy, some cops like being cops because they want to serve and protect the community they love. On the other hand, some cops, even those who started out with good intentions, sometimes get mad and go too far. And sometimes, some cops actually are just corrupt and abusive and got into it for the wrong reasons. Now should we say all cops are awful and should be denounced, or do we take a nuanced and realistic look at the complaints a department is receiving? I think we're finally beginning to take a nuanced and realistic look.
Apr 30, 2018 at 19:59 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: Perhaps a better way of understanding what Apaul is talking about can be found in this page on the Five Geek Social Fallacies. It's an old document, but I think GSF's 1-3 are at least somewhat relevant to what Apaul is saying. It's not exactly the same thing, but it's similar.
Apr 30, 2018 at 19:40 comment added Oleg @NathanTuggy I know I'm reaching but apaul is talking about 3 distinct groups one of those groups is racists,sexist.... And because I also know that he wants to expel all racists from SO even if their racism doesn't manifest in any way I think that's what he really means.
Apr 30, 2018 at 19:37 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Oleg: Ehhh I'd suggest "wrong reasons" is just a slightly clunky way of saying something more along the lines of "impure motives" (that they aren't here to make a programming library that is better for everyone in the best possible way, but something a little short of that, like a programming library that's better for white Java programmers or something).
Apr 30, 2018 at 19:06 history edited Peter Mortensen CC BY-SA 3.0
Active reading [<http://www.wikihow.com/Use-There,-Their-and-They%27re> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/inadvertently#Adverb> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ourselves#Pronoun>].
Apr 30, 2018 at 13:53 comment added Oleg @NicolBolas "who is also perhaps a bit racist, or sexist, or homophobic..." followed by "brought more than few people to the Stack Exchange Network who are probably here for the wrong reasons" means apaul thinks some people came here specifically with the goal of being racist, or sexist, or homophobic
Apr 30, 2018 at 13:49 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: ... huh? Where are you getting that from? The post isn't saying anything of the kind. What it's saying is that unpleasant people came to answer questions along with perfectly reasonable people. But now that we're trying to do something about the unpleasant ones, some of the reasonable ones are defending them without realizing how unpleasant they are. I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's certainly not some conspiracy theory that the sexist/racists/etc somehow planned all of this.
Apr 30, 2018 at 12:50 comment added Oleg So your theory is that a bunch of racist, or sexist, or homophobic people who also love programming and spent quite a lot of time getting good at it came here not because they love programming but because they were looking for a place where they can be racist, right... their plan was also not to do it on SO(because we can't see it here) but wait for some years until other sites will be opened were they can manifest their racism... yeah... makes a lot of sense.
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:29 comment added BDL @NathanTuggy: I totally agree with that and this is also how I handle duplicates. But there are other opinions which say that duplicates should be downvoted no matter of their quality because not finding the duplicate target is inherently a lack of research. Seeing good questions downvoted due to this also makes me sad (to stay with the words of the blog). I think we all should see the blog way more relaxed and not interpret the worst in it. And I for sure do not agree with everything said in the blog. We all should wait which proposals will be made to improve the situation and than judge that
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:25 comment added Nathan Tuggy @BDL: Dupe voting is a bit fuzzy anyway, but the post does nothing to clarify things. My own guidelines would be something like this: if the post is clearly a solid, well-researched, clearly-phrased question that adds a new dimension to searchability of the dupe target, I'll cheerfully upvote. If it's lacking a bit of that, I'll be more hesitant, or will just leave it unvoted. If it took an unusually short amount of time to find the dupe, or if it took longer than normal to figure out what the question was saying in order to find it, I'll downvote.
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:21 comment added BDL Not finding a duplicate is (imho) not a lack of research that warrants down-voting (with some exceptions like duplicates that can be found by pasting the question title into google). The whole blog post doesn't say anything about downvoting other things than duplicates like off-topic or unclear questions.
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:20 comment added BDL @NathanTuggy This sentence has been discussed in several meta posts now. I still think it says "Don't downvote duplicates because they are duplicates" with which I agree. It doesn't say, imho, that one shouldn't downvote duplicates if they don't meet the quality standard. I'v seen a large number of duplicates that were downvoted although they were actually well written (and sometimes even better written then the dupe target).
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:11 comment added Nathan Tuggy @BDL: The blog is partly against comments (which is not necessarily that big a deal, although coming down harder on comments on answers to terrible questions is not something I agree with), but also partly and explicitly against downvotes. ("It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate.") Downclosevoting isn't police brutality (unlike rude comment pileups); it's using a fairly reasonable amount of force to ensure the job does get done.
Apr 30, 2018 at 9:59 comment added Rhayene @NathanTuggy it seems I misunderstood. I am sorry for this.
Apr 30, 2018 at 9:17 comment added BDL If you want to stay with the law analogy: It is perfectly fine for a policeman to arrest a thief (aka close a off-topic question). It is not ok for a police man to punch the thief in the face while arresting them (aka leave a "This is soooo basic, if you're to stupid to understand even that you're shouldn't be here" style comment). I read the blog as a statement against the second part, not about the closing itself.
Apr 30, 2018 at 8:59 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Rhayene: Perhaps I wasn't clear; my point was that in order to protect innocent people and good things, it's been found necessary for centuries to also protect some guilty people and bad things. (As few as possible, certainly, but it's never been anywhere near none.)
Apr 30, 2018 at 8:56 comment added Rhayene @NathanTuggy those protections are there for a reason. If you never found yourself in the need of those protections because you are innocent, good. I wish that you never will be in a situation like that.
Apr 30, 2018 at 8:23 comment added Nathan Tuggy I can definitely get everything you're saying in this answer, but I think it bears mentioning that lousy, but not provably lousy folks have a very long history of being deliberately defended by the best elements of society's justice. That's where we get concepts like the right to a jury trial, innocence until proven guilt, protection against illicit search/seizure, and so forth: all protections that, in normal circumstances, mostly protect those who probably did do something at least rather nasty. So for SE to inadvertently shelter a few sneaky louses is far from the worst possible thing.
Apr 30, 2018 at 7:18 comment added user2357112 I can agree with a good portion of this, but the blog post doesn't actually seem to focus on users who are harsh because they enjoy it.
Apr 30, 2018 at 6:40 history answered apaul CC BY-SA 3.0